Taping

I read the post on the message board about the 8 yr old that had problems but apparently there was a prior history of problems retaining carbon dioxide for some other health reason per the poster. Duh...big surprise there was a problem?

It wasn't a medical study. It was parents turning off the machine to see what would happen. Then reporting what reportedly happened on an online forum.

Here is a working link.http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/message-b ... &view=next

copied one paragraph and red emphasis mine.

"My sons face mask DOES have a safety valve that opens when the pressure delivery stops (its a resmed mirage series 2 full face) BUT the fact still remains that even with this safety valve when we tried our experiment in turning off his machine with mask still in place he did not awaken and went a nasty shade of dusky blue/purple with stridor and began thrashing around the bed and got so bad we had to abort the experiment before he got in trouble. I am wondering if the fact my son retains c02 to high levels (without having CPAP on) doesn't help here , as it seems most OSA sufferers do not have high c02. "

moresleep wrote:An interesting experiment. But, to do it right you'd need someone to turn off the machine while you were sleeping and then monitor you for the next two hours (through a sleep cycle) to see what happens. As reported here - http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/message-b ... &view=next - an 8-year-old apparently did experience difficulties--with a full face mask. My worry is that stuffiness and a lot of other factors would figure in how well one continued to breath (and get O2) in machine-off conditions.

I was kind of expecting some kind of movement in O2 levels, in light of the archangle comment:

Taping your mouth risks suffocation if the machine quits blowing and you don't wake up. You will be rebreathing your own exhaled air. Oxygen will decrease and CO2 will increase.

kempo wrote:I can assure you archangle my doctor has more knowledge about OSA and the treatment for OSA than you will ever obtain. You see my Doctor has OSA himself. He uses an auto cpap. He knows I have changed the settings on my machine to get my numbers as low as possible.

He has dedicated his life to it because of his OSA. He wants his patients to live a long and healthy life. When I told him I was taping my mouth he smiled and said that's fine. Your numbers look great.

The reason I trust this person is because he is not only a brilliant doctor he is a good friend of mine. I will take his word over any forum jocky who is pretending to be a genius and at the same time giving out bullsh#t advice.

Wow, that's great. We can stop spending all that money doing testing on new drugs and medical equipment. We'll just have someone find a brilliant doctor, and ask his opinion during a routine medical visit, and then declare it safe and not discuss any possible risks anymore.

Let me know when he publishes a paper on the subject stating he thinks that there is no risk of aspiration pneumonia if you vomit with your mouth taped and can't get your tape off in time.

He should also say that there's no risk of asphyxiation with a nasal mask and your mouth taped and you don't wake up when your CPAP fails, along with his explanation of why you need an anti-ASPHYXIA vent in a FFM mask, but don't need an anti-asphyxia valve with a nasal mask and tape.

Peer reviewed journals with statistical study results only, please.

Now maybe he thinks the benefits of taping outweigh the risks. I have no problem with someone making that choice. I only object when someone with no data says there is no risk.

I really don't mind if someone chooses to tape. I just object to uninformed people claiming there's no risk when they have no data, and trying to stop others from warning people of the risks.

brain_cloud wrote:5. With machine off, nasal mask on me with good seal, and mouth taped to hell and back, I lay in bed breathing normally for 20 minutes.
6. Took off mask and tape and after a couple minutes, stopped the oximeter.

That's interesting. Did you feel the air was "stale" or feel any "can't get air" feeling? I find I feel short of air pretty quickly if I turn the machine off and keep my mouth closed.

Try the same test with the nasal mask and the hose unconnected to the machine.

archangle wrote:

brain_cloud wrote:5. With machine off, nasal mask on me with good seal, and mouth taped to hell and back, I lay in bed breathing normally for 20 minutes.
6. Took off mask and tape and after a couple minutes, stopped the oximeter.

That's interesting. Did you feel the air was "stale" or feel any "can't get air" feeling? I find I feel short of air pretty quickly if I turn the machine off and keep my mouth closed.

Try the same test with the nasal mask and the hose unconnected to the machine.

I think it may have something to do with the fact that I am used to exhaling against high pressures. What it felt like was normal on the exhale (felt like breathing against pressure in the high teens) and just the smallest bit difficult on the inhale. I suppose someone unused to high pressures might have found it uncomfortable.

brain_cloud wrote:

moresleep wrote:An interesting experiment. But, to do it right you'd need someone to turn off the machine while you were sleeping and then monitor you for the next two hours (through a sleep cycle) to see what happens. As reported here - http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/message-b ... &view=next - an 8-year-old apparently did experience difficulties--with a full face mask. My worry is that stuffiness and a lot of other factors would figure in how well one continued to breath (and get O2) in machine-off conditions.

I was kind of expecting some kind of movement in O2 levels, in light of the archangle comment:

Taping your mouth risks suffocation if the machine quits blowing and you don't wake up. You will be rebreathing your own exhaled air. Oxygen will decrease and CO2 will increase.

Archangel's scenario is that "you don't wake up." That is indeed the danger. While you are awake, you will naturally increase breathing efforts to compensate and will take off the mask if you cannot compensate. I would not expect O2 to drop much if any while awake. While asleep, a normal person should react to buildup of CO2 (caused by rebreathing) by breathing harder, and should wake up if the situation becomes serious; but, in some circumstances, there is the danger that a gradual buildup of CO2 will not provoke sufficient compensation or, if the situation becomes dire, arouse the sleeper.

archangle wrote:

kempo wrote:I can assure you archangle my doctor has more knowledge about OSA and the treatment for OSA than you will ever obtain. You see my Doctor has OSA himself. He uses an auto cpap. He knows I have changed the settings on my machine to get my numbers as low as possible.

He has dedicated his life to it because of his OSA. He wants his patients to live a long and healthy life. When I told him I was taping my mouth he smiled and said that's fine. Your numbers look great.

The reason I trust this person is because he is not only a brilliant doctor he is a good friend of mine. I will take his word over any forum jocky who is pretending to be a genius and at the same time giving out bullsh#t advice.

Wow, that's great. We can stop spending all that money doing testing on new drugs and medical equipment. We'll just have someone find a brilliant doctor, and ask his opinion during a routine medical visit, and then declare it safe and not discuss any possible risks anymore.

Let me know when he publishes a paper on the subject stating he thinks that there is no risk of aspiration pneumonia if you vomit with your mouth taped and can't get your tape off in time.

He should also say that there's no risk of asphyxiation with a nasal mask and your mouth taped and you don't wake up when your CPAP fails, along with his explanation of why you need an anti-ASPHYXIA vent in a FFM mask, but don't need an anti-asphyxia valve with a nasal mask and tape.

Peer reviewed journals with statistical study results only, please.

Now maybe he thinks the benefits of taping outweigh the risks. I have no problem with someone making that choice. I only object when someone with no data says there is no risk.

I really don't mind if someone chooses to tape. I just object to uninformed people claiming there's no risk when they have no data, and trying to stop others from warning people of the risks.

I can't believe what I'm reading. Do you read the post?. I have been saying everything you do in this life has a risk to it. Good grief. Your losing it.

kempo wrote:I can't believe what I'm reading. Do you read the post?. I have been saying everything you do in this life has a risk to it. Good grief. Your losing it.

Are YOU reading the posts? I'm not upset at all. The taping risk deniers are the only ones who seem to be infatuated with this.

Yes, many things in life have risks. Riding in my car is dangerous. Probably the most dangerous risk I choose to take. I choose to take the risk. I do things like wear a seat belt to reduce the risk.

Just because I decide to take the risk of car travel doesn't mean I tell others that there are no risks involved in car travel.

moresleep wrote:

brain_cloud wrote:

moresleep wrote:An interesting experiment. But, to do it right you'd need someone to turn off the machine while you were sleeping and then monitor you for the next two hours (through a sleep cycle) to see what happens. As reported here - http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/message-b ... &view=next - an 8-year-old apparently did experience difficulties--with a full face mask. My worry is that stuffiness and a lot of other factors would figure in how well one continued to breath (and get O2) in machine-off conditions.

I was kind of expecting some kind of movement in O2 levels, in light of the archangle comment:

Taping your mouth risks suffocation if the machine quits blowing and you don't wake up. You will be rebreathing your own exhaled air. Oxygen will decrease and CO2 will increase.

Archangel's scenario is that "you don't wake up." That is indeed the danger. While you are awake, you will naturally increase breathing efforts to compensate and will take off the mask if you cannot compensate. I would not expect O2 to drop much if any while awake. While asleep, a normal person should react to buildup of CO2 (caused by rebreathing) by breathing harder, and should wake up if the situation becomes serious; but, in some circumstances, there is the danger that a gradual buildup of CO2 will not provoke sufficient compensation or, if the situation becomes dire, arouse the sleeper.

It's precisely the need to breathe harder over time that I was expecting to occur and which surprised me by not happening. How do you know that there is a buildup of CO2 at all under machine off conditions? After all, there is some rebreathing even with the machine on.

brain_cloud wrote: . . .
It's precisely the need to breathe harder over time that I was expecting to occur and which surprised me by not happening. How do you know that there is a buildup of CO2 at all under machine off conditions? After all, there is some rebreathing even with the machine on.

Hmm. That would worry me, if I were you. I, too, have tried the rebreathing experiment, and in just seconds after turning off the Cpap, I was breathing fast and hard in an effort to get enough CO2--the expected response. I'll try it again with my present machine, which has an anti-asphyxia valve in the inlet to the humidifier tank. The design of the mask, length of the hose, and type of machine would, of course, make a difference. But, unless the hose is very short, I believe in all cases you would have significant rebreathing and buildup of CO2. One of those studies I cited--I'll try to find it again--seems to establish that, with the machine not blowing, the mask's exhale port is almost useless in flushing out CO2.

The essential problem is the amount of "dead" air that has to be pushed out the hose to get in new air. A shorter hose would definitely help with that; but, I doubt the hose can be shortened enough to eliminate the problem, especially with a humidifier in the circuit.

DoriC wrote:

LinkC wrote:

archangle wrote:I also don't think anyone will disagree that vomiting with your mouth taped will be a really bad experience either. The debate is whether you'll be able to get the tape off in time.

Ah, but there IS a record of a CPAP-related death caused by this. But it was while wearing a FF mask, NOT taping..

Link, I was almost going to skip this thread as it doesn't apply to my husband...he wears a FF mask! Is there a link to this incident? And do I want to read it?

Dori,
I think they are referring to this link posted earlier in the thread.
http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/message-b ... &view=next

It links to a 2004 post on talkaboutsleep that contains what seems to be a summary of a poster presentation at an unnamed conference. It describes a death during a power failure and notes that the exhalation port was partially blocked by tape. It does add that even without the tape blocking the port the possibility is there. But it's one death in someone who's exhalation port was blocked. I think it's probably more relevant to the discussion of nasal mask users who tape than it is to ordinary full face mask users but you should read it for yourself.

And, as someone who has tape all over my masks it's a good reminder to me to keep on being careful to keep it away from all the holes.

Midnightowl.

Pugsy wrote:I read the post on the message board about the 8 yr old that had problems but apparently there was a prior history of problems retaining carbon dioxide for some other health reason per the poster. Duh...big surprise there was a problem?

It wasn't a medical study. It was parents turning off the machine to see what would happen. Then reporting what reportedly happened on an online forum.

Here is a working link.http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/message-b ... &view=next

copied one paragraph and red emphasis mine.

"My sons face mask DOES have a safety valve that opens when the pressure delivery stops (its a resmed mirage series 2 full face) BUT the fact still remains that even with this safety valve when we tried our experiment in turning off his machine with mask still in place he did not awaken and went a nasty shade of dusky blue/purple with stridor and began thrashing around the bed and got so bad we had to abort the experiment before he got in trouble. I am wondering if the fact my son retains c02 to high levels (without having CPAP on) doesn't help here , as it seems most OSA sufferers do not have high c02. "

The point is that, even with the anti-asphyxia valve opening when the Cpap was turned off, there was (1) significant buildup of CO2 for this boy and (2) even though he turned blue and thrashed around, he did not wake up. The first seems to contradict the results of a study I cited earlier, which said that the valve did prevent rebreathing and CO2 buildingup. I don't see how the boy's normally high CO2 levels (or any other medical condition) would change that. But, even if it did, getting to the second point, one would have expected the boy's obvious physical distress to have woken him up--but it didn't. I'm not drawing any conclusions from one incident; but, the troubling suggestions are obvious.

moresleep wrote:[
The point is that, even with the anti-asphyxia valve opening when the Cpap was turned off, there was (1) significant buildup of CO2 for this boy and (2) even though he turned blue and thrashed around, he did not wake up. The first seems to contradict the results of a study I cited earlier, which said that the valve did prevent rebreathing and CO2 buildingup. I don't see how the boy's normally high CO2 levels (or any other medical condition) would change that. But, even if it did, getting to the second point, one would have expected the boy's obvious physical distress to have woken him up--but it didn't. I'm not drawing any conclusions from one incident; but, the troubling suggestions are obvious.

I wonder if that could be related to the lower breath volume of an eight year old. I don't think either the machines or masks are designed with children in mind.

It's once incident and probaby a very unusual one - a child with other severe medical conditions it sounds like - but at the very least it does demonstrate that waking up is not a universal human response. I'd be much happier if I knew how unusual it was.

https://www.cpap.com/productpage/relian ... light.html

I bought this little gadget a long time ago and it works great. We had a power failure a few months ago and the alarm woke me up immediately but my husband who was in a deep sleep kept sleeping for quite a bit longer. His breathing did get a little more labored but I admit I didn't wait to see if he'd wake up on his own. To tell the truth, it was scary and I'm glad I have this little gadget.

A couple of months ago while camping with friends (we both use cpap) I was hooked up to battery power and my friend hooked up to electricity. The power went out about 2am, I was fine as I was on back up power but I wondered about my friend. In the morning as asked him what he did when the power went out.......he said he didn't know it went out until morning when he saw the clock was out, he had just kept on sleeping right through the power outage. I kept asking him during the day if he was okay and he was fine. He had been wearing an F&P full face mask & it must have had an asphyxia valve since he was fine with no power, with his mask on, for 5 hours. So there you go 5 hours without power still breathing through his mask per normal. Regarding the vomiting argument........I threw up in my quattro mask a couple of weeks ago when I had food poisoning....I just got up and took it off, washed everything and went back to bed. Believe me, if you vomit while asleep with your mask on you will definately wake up with the retching. NOBODY can sleep through that sensation.