Does Sleep Apnea make you Angry?

Robespierre wrote:Whether depression is a disease or a symptom, SSRIs constitute an effective means of helping to control the problem. The only effective means as far as I can tell.

There is where I completely disagree. Every research study that I have seen shows that Cognative Behavioral Therapy (CBT) is as or more effective than antidepressants with no side effects and best of all continues to work long after the therapy ends. Depression very often returns once you stop SSRIs... Why becase it doesn't cure the problem, it only chemically forces you to feel better. Once again antidepressants work on the same principles as many street drugs.

Robespierre wrote:For some reason that I cannot fathom, there are some naysayers that condemn a helpful medication. I’m guessing by your pointing out a couple of books by some of those naysayers in a subsequent post, you believe them.

I can't fathom how people can think taking drugs is the solution to emotional problems. If you experiencing depressed due to emotional problems you need to address the emotional problems.

Robespierre wrote: You’re apparently anti-SSRI, I’m extremely pro-SSRI (for true clinical depression diagnosed by a competent psychiatrist).

'Clinical' depression is just depression. There is no such thing as 'clinical' depression. If you have a formal definition of clinical depression I'd love to hear it. I was diagnosed with clinical depression several times by psyciatrists and took SSRIs for many years. Depression is very real and very terrible. Drugs are not the solution. Drugs create chemical imbalances they don't fix them. Have you ever had a psyciatrist measure these so called chemical imbalances? The answer is no because they can't, its a lie. The idea that depression is due to low seratonin was created by Eli Lilly to sell Prozac and was never based in science. Can you force your self to feel different by taking antidpressants, sure... will it cure your problem... nope. I don't normally take to conspiracy theories but this really is one. Drug companies want you on a pill that you take every day for the rest of your life, its in the interest of their shareholders...

I used to be like you and think SSRIs where the solution to life problems. You probably won't listen to my advice and dismiss me. I encourage you to study how they work, their history, how your brain works, etc. The only conclusion one can come to is that drugs don't solve problems. I bet you would not suggest taking low dosages of cocaine for depression? You probably think the idea is even crazy? Its not that different at how it works. Its a triple reuptake inhibitor... just like the new antidepressants that are now being pushed since the old ones are going off patient...

Of course every ones opinions are different. I believe that you got your opinion pushed on you by drug companies, doctors, and the fact that you feel better when you take SSRIs (which is very compelling for sure)

The biggest problem with drugs for depression is that they are prescribed without a referral to a therapist of some sort. Like as if they were antibiotics or pain killers and the drugs will solve the problem - they won't, They will help you cope with life while you have decent therapy of some sort. Plus make lifestyle changes to help decrease the triggers. Depression is linked to addiction in the fact that both are chemical issues within the brain (that can these days be measured) People with severe depression need to medication in order to make the life changes that will help them.

Exercise helps but just try to get a very depressed person up and running - and I have tried with my daughter !! You haven't seen anything until you have seen us on the street - one 60 year old woman gasping & screaming at the 20 year old bitching her head off!! It doesn't do much for our relationship.

Like with OSA, depression means taking your healing into your own hands and trying everything ( therapy, diet, life style, alternative medicines) while the medication makes it possible to focus, but never forgetting the medication is a crutch that allows you to get from point A to point B.

BlackSpinner wrote:Depression is linked to addiction in the fact that both are chemical issues within the brain (that can these days be measured)

From my understanding of depression is that it is a result of the dysfunction between the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala. Specifically, the amygdala has become over active and the pre-frontal cortex under active. This no doubt results in chemical changes in the brain but the effect is a result not causal.

You mention that this chimerical issues can be measured? I'm not aware of any test that can do this. Can you elaborate? The only way that I know of to even get an idea of neurotransmitter levels is to measure their levels in urine, plasma, or platelets non of which necessary corresponds to brain levels.

re: depression

My knowledge may be a little out of date now, but I understood there were two kinds of depression. One caused by the body in some way, and the other caused by our thinking, beliefs etc.

Depression caused by the body, including the brain, can sometimes be treated by medication. And that is appropriate.

Depression caused by our thinking etc, can be treated by changing our thinking, usually through some form of cognitive behavioural therapy.

Finally, endogenous depression (caused by the body), can be exacerbated by cognitive depression. Expressions such as "I can't stand this" "this is too much" and other awfulising statements, will make the endogenous depression worse.

So treatment for endogenous depression would probably best include appropriate medication, together with cognitive therapy.

The ins and outs of all this I do not know, but I do know that in dealing with depression the above model has worked very well.

Lets not get depressed about being depressed might be our watchword.

Then again it might just be my watchword.

cheers

Mars

mars wrote:My knowledge may be a little out of date now, but I understood there were two kinds of depression. One caused by the body in some way, and the other caused by our thinking, beliefs etc.

Depression caused by the body, including the brain, can sometimes be treated by medication. And that is appropriate.

Depression caused by our thinking etc, can be treated by changing our thinking, usually through some form of cognitive behavioural therapy.

The problem is that doctors prescribe medication regardless of what type of depression you have. If you go to your doctor and tell them you are depressed after you have had a divorce, breakup, or death in the family they will very likely put you on an antidepressant. You don't need an antidepressant in that case you need counciling and help dealing with the emotional issues that you are struggling with that are causing your depression.

Many physical problem can have depression as a symptom (low B12, thyroid problems, etc) but if you simply put someone on an antidepressant you may not find the actual cause. My guess is that tiny percent ( < 1%) of all depression is caused by actual brain chemical imbalances (as the cause not a result) Until we have a test showing that someone has an imbalance its purely a fabrication. (Note: I have no doubt that lowing neurtransmitter levels with cause depression as a symptom but there is no evidence that the millions of people put on antidepressants have have neurotransmitter level problems as a cause) Even if you measure a chemical imbalance it doesn't mean that is what caused the depression. The whole idea of the 'chemical imbalances' is a gross over simplification of how the brain works.

Anytime you have HUGE portions of the population put on a class of drugs you have to ask yourself is it really possible that all these bodies are malfunctioning in this way? The current craze of using statin drugs preemptively is a perfect example. If you are having cholesterol problems then you need to change your diet, exercise, etc not take a drug that blocks cholesterol production (we have cholesterol for a reason after all) Drugs should only be used in extreme cases when the obvious approaches don't work. Sadly the doctors and patients don't even try the obvious approaches. Everyone wants a quick easy fix.


If you want to stop physical depression you have to locate the physical problem. If you want to stop cognitive depression you have to change how you think. Unfortunately its a lot easier to just take a pill that alters our feelings that to deal with the issues (that can take a long time to heal)

jskinner wrote:

mars wrote:My knowledge may be a little out of date now, but I understood there were two kinds of depression. One caused by the body in some way, and the other caused by our thinking, beliefs etc.

Depression caused by the body, including the brain, can sometimes be treated by medication. And that is appropriate.

Depression caused by our thinking etc, can be treated by changing our thinking, usually through some form of cognitive behavioural therapy.

If you want to stop physical depression you have to locate the physical problem. If you want to stop cognitive depression you have to change how you think. Unfortunately its a lot easier to just take a pill that alters our feelings that to deal with the issues (that can take a long time to heal)

Hi jskinner and all

It seems to me that somehow or another you are saying that we should (a cognitive absolute) all live in a rational world, that doctors should always be rational and that patients should always be rational.

My friend, we live on Planet Earth.

I doubt that you realise how hard most people would find it if they tried to change their thinking. So most people go for the easier option. Of those who do, many find that with the medication, they can then start addressing their thinking, which they would not have been able to do without the medication.

You might also appreciate that Cognitive Behavioural Therapy is not the be all and end all of therapy. There is such a thing as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, which can cause severe depression, amongst other things, and CBT may minimise the reactive behaviour at times, but far more powerful therapy such as experiential therapy is usually needed for recovery.

Knowing that your thinking is wrong will not bring about change, and if you are depressed it is very hard to put in the energy needed to change, but it is possible with guidance and support. And most people do not think their thinking is wrong in the first place.

I will now step off my soap-box, back to Planet Earth, where if something can be done wrong, it will be.

cheers

Mars

mars wrote:I doubt that you realise how hard most people would find it if they tried to change their thinking.

Thanks.

How many people do you think actually try. I bet most say its hard and don't even attempt it.

mars wrote: Of those who do, many find that with the medication, they can then start addressing their thinking, which they would not have been able to do without the medication.

Yes medication can help start the process if someone is severely depressed. VERY few people get any type of therapy along with medication.

mars wrote:You might also appreciate that Cognitive Behavioural Therapy is not the be all and end all of therapy.

I don't believe that I implied that it was? I was suggesting that it, along with other life changes should be tried before resorting to changing brain chemistry.

mars wrote:There is such a thing as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, which can cause severe depression, amongst other things, and CBT may minimise the reactive behaviour at times, but far more powerful therapy such as experiential therapy is usually needed for recovery.

I was talking about CBT for depression due to every day life events not PTSD.

mars wrote:Knowing that your thinking is wrong will not bring about change

Exactly. That's why you need some systematic approach to change the thoughts and behaviors. Just talking about or thinking about the problem is not going to change anything.

I'm giving up on this thread. Its impossible to express things well on an online form and it just deteriorates into messy shouting match

So, back to the original question...Does Sleep Apnea make you Angry? Or Frustrated? Or Impatient?

spookydoo wrote:So, back to the original question...Does Sleep Apnea make you Angry? Or Frustrated? Or Impatient?

To answer the original question, no, sleep apnea doesn't make me angry. Obviously, nobody is happy to get this diagnosis, and I'm no exception. But, all things considered, it's not so bad. At least there's a treatment available that doesn't have to involve surgery or anything more than an inconvenient lifestyle change. I can live with that (literally).

Frustrated? Yep. Long time on the hose, and I've yet to achieve effective therapy. Still, it's better than having untreated OSA.

Impatient? Yep, I'm the queen of impatience! (Where's my crown?)

I'm occasionally short-tempered and cranky, but I figure I've earned the right. (And I try to direct any outbursts at the people or entities who deserve it, like politicians and DMEs.)

Hey, JSKinner, online discussions ARE challenging *smile*, don't give up, you may share an idea that causes an "ah ha" in someone that changes their life!

I haven't chimed in as I'm a confirmed believer that much of what we call depression is due to the lack of eating the right fats or eating too little, essential fatty acids to be precise (omega 3s) surrounding our brain cells causing our brains to malfunction/mis-communicate amongst its cells. We eat huge amts of fats derived from veggies (omega 6s) rather than the omega 3 we used to eat. Turns out by eating this changed ratio, brain cell membranes are changed. That, in turn, ultimately affects how well cells communicate. When our brain cells don't communicate well, we develop what are called mood disorders, i. e., depression. I believe that all the ADD, ADHD, etc. disorders are all related to cell membrane permeability with resultant poor transport across that membrane affecting the electro-chemical communication that occurs between cells. Many of us who believe this take fish oils (Coromega is my choice, no fishy taste-burps) and additional DHA as well as eat foods high in the omega 3s (wild Alaskan salmon, walnuts anyone?). My flirting with depression is now under control.

As a mood upper, chocolate is hard to beat. It's got a chemical (a zillion letters long, known affectionately as PEA) that's an upper; daily or more often as needed *G* I enjoy a cup of hot cocoa made with hot water, Ghirardelli 100% ground cacao, Splenda, heavy cream.

Apnea scared me when I realized how deadly apnea it is. Learning I really had it and then seeing the mask and device depressed me as I realized my life and sleeping-napping would never be the same (had to go through the 5 stages of grief); however, I also bittersweetly realized that CPAP was the only thing that could save my life. I decided that no emotional reaction on my part was worth endangering my survival and became committed to learning to sleep with a CPAP and mask.

It's been a long time since I've been on this site. I got so frustrated w/ my slow and unsteady improvements on cpap that I sat back for awhile and used by cpap every single night and observed myself and tried everything I could think of to improve my mental and physical function. I moved to CA and got a new doc who thought my nightime SATS were still too low on cpap so got upgraded to Bipap and additional O2 at night. That made the difference but my body is still behind in the improvement stages.

So what I meant to say is that before I was diagnosed w/ OSA, I didn't get mad. Didn't have enough energy or cognitive function to get mad. Once I got on Cpap I got angry at everything and almost thought I should be kept in a cage. That has finally lessened to "normal" upsets about things that "everybody" gets upset about. But that only changed after I had been on the additional O2 at night. I am glad to see the anger and frustration go.

Reading this thread has explained a lot. I had thought my brain was damaged and this was the "new me".

Keep asking for help until you get it. You know how you used to feel and act, you know what better should look like.

Thanks for asking the question and thanks for all the responses. It has helped me today.

C

The only time it made me angry was before I was actually diagnosed! I am happy now that I know, because it means that I am not just lazy . I would get angry at DH when before I got diagnosed because when I would say I was tired he would say "from what"? I am a SAHM, so he just couldn't figure out why I was so tired when I got to sleep until 7:30am and take naps when he had been up since 5am. Now that he has seen my diagnosis in writing and sees the CPAP, he realizes why I am/was so tired and cranky. He is supportive when I need a break. I always felt like before the diagnoses he thought I was exaggerating or lazy. THAT made me angry, not the Sleep Apnea itself. Now I am just happy that there is a way to fight it.

I wouldn't be angry if pap therapy was successful for me. The rare times it has worked, it was like I was seeing the world in color vs. black and white.

But I am angry that I am intolerant so far of a treatment I need to have any chance of leading a successful productive healthy life. And unfortunately, the only medical professional who has provided a possible explanation is Dr. Park who states that for highly sensitive people that pap machines can cause arousals.

And speaking of anger, I am enraged at the sleep medicine dentists who have hijacked the term "cpap intolerance" to take advantage of people like me. By doing that, in my opinion, they have prevented any possible discussions of why so many people have difficulty with the machine in spite of trying every possibility to make it work.

49er

49er: {{{HUG}}}

49er wrote:And speaking of anger, I am enraged at the sleep medicine dentists who have hijacked the term "cpap intolerance" to take advantage of people like me. By doing that, in my opinion, they have prevented any possible discussions of why so many people have difficulty with the machine in spite of trying every possibility to make it work.

I don't understand this part... What did the dentists do? I'm guessing you had a dental device made that didn't work?