Treating flow limitation causes more central apneas?

knarf wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:59 pm

palerider wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:30 pm

You're just bound and determined to have something you don't, aren't you?

I am absolutely looking to have something . And if I'm wrong then so be it I guess. I'm still tired every day and something's bound to be causing it.
In total I haven't used CPAP for long, true, but my younger brother has used his CPAP under guidance from his sleep physician for almost a year.
And he has felt zero difference.

If the average sleep physician was 'all that', then this forum wouldn't exist, because people wouldn't be searching for help.

Send your brother this way.

palerider wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:36 am

not any that you posted, you're imagining things. Or maybe you want picture perfect breath shapes, and those just don't exist.

Sure if you disagree, then yea you're... probably right? I mean you definitely have more experience with this than I do, that's why I ask the people here for advice. But that doesn't mean I didn't look at my graphs before posting, that's the point I was making.

palerider wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:36 am

No. that would be hypopneas

The reason why I asked is because the article below mentions that "for all practical purposes" following three terms are interchangeable: UARS, Flow limitation, RERA.
https://www.apneaboard.com/wiki/index.p ... _and_BiPAP
And when I do a search for UARS everything I read points to a possible partial obstruction.
To be clear, I'm not here to argue with you. Maybe there's a finer point you're making that I'm not seeing.
And if so, I would love if you could explain. But at the same time, if you feel frustrated explaining, then you don't have to.
Not everyone has to understand everything in life. I'm sure there are many areas in life for which you are ignorant, right? As long as I learn the broad strokes maybe I can manage my apnea and live a good life. That's all I want, not to sit here and make you frustrated.

palerider wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:36 am

You can make anything look outrageous by playing with statistics.

Yes I agree, but when the statistics are combined with me feeling much worse, then I would disagree that it's manipulation. Because I'm not a snake oil salesman here creating something out of nothing. I actually did feel much worse. That was not imagination.
In general a tripling could indicate a problem, or it might not. It depends on the problem and the domain I guess. In this domain I don't have much knowledge, so that's why I ask.

palerider wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:25 pm

spinning yourself into a tizzy isn't going to get things any better any faster.

Sure, but as I mentioned above, by the time Ozij made her final reply, I was ready to move on.
Does that mean I understand all the finer points? No, and that's why I still ask from time to time. But it's just for my understanding, not because I'm spinning myself into a tizzy. And even if I am, thank you for your concern of course, but it doesn't have to be your problem.

palerider wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:25 pm

what did you just respond to? What did I just say?

I just don't know why you mentioned oxygen. The point you were replying to was when I was talking about how breathing more affects CA events. Then you mentioned oxygen and how it doesn't affect respiratory drive, but I did not believe you were addressing my question about how breathing affects blood gas levels, specifically CO2, and how that affects CA events.
Again, when you mentioned oxygen I simply said... OK, but is it CO2 then? If not, then I'm usually happy to learn more but if it frustrates you then you don't need to explain to me.

palerider wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:25 pm

Go back and read again, and try to understand.

Sure, I may do so, or I may ask for more clarification if I don't understand. Alternatively, if you have time to explain more clearly, then be my guest.
Typically the better teachers I've had will break it down with more detail, diagrams, links to other sources, etc.. You haven't quite done that. Which is fine, you don't need to. Don't get me wrong, there are some things you've said which I've learned from, which is great.
For the things I don't understand, it's OK. Maybe I don't need to.

palerider wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:36 am

And we're back to what was pointed out about 90 people giving you garbage answers and 10 giving you good ones. If you really just want quantities of (probably) wrong answers, go to facebook or reddit.

Well I was specifically replying to you three in this thread. My comment was about writing long replies to give you three as much information as I can before I get back on the computer. I didn't say anything about wanting random people to give me replies on FB or reddit. For those other random people, I'll take what they say with a grain of salt. Again you guys are the experts.

palerider wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:36 am

Yes, irritating people is certainly one way to get more replies.

I mean unfortunately.. whatever works, right? I mean if you want the win (for being more knowledgeable), then you can have it. I have no problem with that.
It's all good, and as I mentioned I've learned a lot from your replies as well, especially the ones at the beginning of this thread.

Overall, based on my replies I would say I feel pretty good right now. The objective of these forums is to help people out, not to argue, no?

palerider wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:37 am

If the average sleep physician was 'all that', then this forum wouldn't exist, because people wouldn't be searching for help.

Yea for sure, it really is unfortunate. That's why I'm here

palerider wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 06, 2023 12:37 am

Send your brother this way.

Great! I likely will. Again you guys are the experts, and we're here to learn.
But I will also say that if we don't understand and it's frustrating to anyone replying, then it's fine. We'll learn what we can, and we'll live either way.

knarf wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 06, 2023 7:04 am

That's the objective of these forums. To help people out, not to argue, no?

Well, that's one of the things we like to argue about.

I often learn a lot from, and am helped by, the arguments. Especially when two people arguing are basically agreeing and yet somehow don't seem to realize it.

And I personally consider frustrating palerider to be one of the deeper joys in life.

He's often most grouchy when he's being most helpful.

knarf wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 06, 2023 7:04 am

Life is not a zero sum game.

Au contraire, it's the ultimate zero-sum game.

knarf wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 06, 2023 7:15 am

The resmed website seems to say that it's when CO2 is flushed from the mask.

You are correct.

That boy used the term incorrectly.

Rubicon wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 06, 2023 8:16 am

Au contraire, it's the ultimate zero-sum game.

I suppose it depends on the scope you're referring to. On a grand scale, since entropy increases it's definitely true that any increase in order locally necessitates a larger decrease in order elsewhere. I.E dumping garbage/disorder somewhere else so that I can benefit.
But if we're specifically talking about humans, then clearly we cooperate. It might be at the expense of the wider environment, and that's where you're technically correct about it being the ultimate zero-sum game, but we clearly do benefit together in many cases, and so that's why it depends on where you draw the scope.
I.E is it a closed system or an open system? You can often decrease entropy in an open system (with a corresponding increase in the surrounding system), but the total entropy in a closed system will always increase.

E.g if a tribe works together, they all benefit together, hence a positive sum game if the scope is within that tribe. But it often comes at the expense of a neighbouring tribe, hence overall it's a zero sum game at a larger scope.

Again, I mention that many cases in life can be a positive sum game. But clearly not in all cases, considering all the conflicts in human history.

Just to be clear I see the point you're making though. Overall there are just so many conflicts in life that you might as well consider it a zero sum game.
I guess I wanted to localize my point to this forum. Anyways, maybe I'm just feeding the fire by constantly replying to every single point, instead of just taking the good parts and leaving it at that, lol. Again he is definitely helpful and I'm sure countless people on this forum have benefitted from his advice. My bad!

tl;dr

Rubicon wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 06, 2023 8:31 am

tl;dr

Haha, yea I did write a lot. Can't blame you for not reading. Overall just wanted to say that I see your point, but wanted to explain why I made my point as well.
So we're both correct but in different ways. Cheers!

Forums can be helpful when we have concerns about health and aren't sure if we're missing something or being obsessive or both.

I know I keep trying to get my primary to diagnose me as a hypochondriac, but she stubbornly refuses to do so.

lazarus wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 06, 2023 8:10 am

He's often most grouchy when he's being most helpful.

Maybe I'm just bad at communicating that despite my disagreement with some of the things he says about me, overall I do appreciate his advice in regard to sleep apnea.
And I'm sure countless people on this forum do as well

Maybe we should whisper so he doesn't overhear us talking about him.

knarf wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 06, 2023 8:34 am

So we're both correct but in different ways.

Yeah, no.

You haven't grasped the concept that life is finite and all your aforementioned tribes are (or will soon be) fertilizer.

Now, if you want to offer that a bag of 1-1-1 decomposing human carcasses has some sort of value in re: contributing to a crop of Burpee Beefsteak Tomatoes then fine, but IMO it's PFC to being zero considering what they were prior.

Entropy.

Indeed.

Rubicon wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:08 am

knarf wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 06, 2023 8:34 am

So we're both correct but in different ways.

Yeah, no.

You haven't grasped the concept that life is finite and all your aforementioned tribes are (or will soon be) fertilizer.

Now, if you want to offer that a bag of 1-1-1 decomposing human carcasses has some sort of value in re: contributing to a crop of Burpee Beefsteak Tomatoes then fine, but IMO it's PFC to being zero considering what they were prior.

Entropy.

Indeed.

Well I very much acknowledged that overall the entropy in the universe always increases, since I brought it up. Yea of course, at the largest scale, the ultimate fate of those tribes is fertilizer. And the ultimate fate of the universe is even more grim.
So I would say I have definitely grasped the concept. My point was that at a local scope, I.E an open system, we can have decreasing entropy. A group of people can help each other out, as humans have done countless times in history. But of course it comes at the expense of the surrounding environment, or surrounding people outside that group, and that's where the zero-sum aspect comes into play. Anyways all of that is irrelevant.
What's important is that I got the advice I needed in regard to sleep apnea. So thanks to everyone. Peace out

Once again Dave the religious philosopher reminds me of a song:

https://youtu.be/GzZ2IjmC3pE?si=IRNYREjvR7WFZXyY