I Ran this TEST on My Own APAP Machine - You Can too

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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Papit
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I Ran this TEST on My Own APAP Machine - You Can too

Post by Papit » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:44 pm

Today I did an experiment to perform a --
A Test of my xPAP Machine
-– an easy experiment you can do yourself on your own machine.
After awakening this morning, I did an experiment before turning off my S9 AutoSet (other members here might want to do the same). At exactly 8:53am I took a very deep breath and held it for a full minute. I then exhaled with mouth closed, and resumed normal breathing through my nasal pillows mask, a Swift FX. (Any mask will do.) Presented below are the resulting graphs zoomed in on the time span 8:53 to 8:58, followed by the full night’s graph for perspective.

It appears from the Flow Rate, Tidal Volume and Inspiration Time graphs that the S9 detected my held breath and, waiting until I resumed breathing (in accordance with the machine's algorithm), it recorded it as an obstructive apnea at 8:54. Both a (presumed) oxygen saturating effect of the initial big inhale I took at 8:53 and the full desaturating effect from not breathing until 8:54, appear to be properly reflected in the SpO2 graph: initially rising by 4% from 94 to quickly peak at 98% and then falling 5% during the next 60 seconds to a low of 93%. It correctly recorded my breath-holding episode as an obstructive apnea event at 8:54 when I resumed breathing. I caused the ‘obstruction’ by purposely physically immobilizing my rib cage and preventing any breaths to be taken for one full minute. (You don’t have to hold your breath for that long.)
Upon resuming normal breathing, the O2 saturation level moved quickly back up to peak at 98% and, minutes later, returned to the steadier base level of about 96%. Amazing how quickly and efficiently the human body can work. I had no idea that oxygen saturation levels change so rapidly, both to the downside and upside. Could that really be? Or am I misinterpreting the graphs and forming an erroneous conclusion? I have read before an opinion here that saturation and desaturation are more gradual and do not happen so quickly. Maybe our more experienced members can comment on that for us.

I encourage readers to duplicate the experiment and let us know here whether or not you were able to duplicate my test results. It’s easy to do. (Take a very deep breath if you want to hold it for 30 seconds or more, or just hold it for as long as is comfortable , but make a note of exactly how long it was and the precise start and stop times so you can identify and look over that time span later on the graphs.)

Let's do a PEER REVIEW of my findings. Do the experiment yourself. It's quick and easy. See if you can duplicate my results. Let’s see if my observations are correct by how many members, if any, get similar graphical test results (and how many get different results). And, if confirmed correct by your test results, let’s see which machines and models are sufficiently sensitive and responsive to produce these graphed results.

I also find quite interesting, and surprising, that my O2 desats held at 93% and above during this breath-holding experiment and in the period that followed afterward. QUESTION: What do all the earlier graphed lower desat readings mean? Are they right? Are the pulse-oximeters accurate? If they are and if those low desats are correct, why did they go so low? Or are they wrong and are pulse oximeters inherently inaccurate and unreliable? (I doubt that.) None of the recorded central or obstructive apnea lasted anywhere close to a full minute. All were in the 10 to 23 seconds range. And yet they resulted in desat readings down in the 80's. What's going on? Avi, rubysue, John, Pugsy, anybody?

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Last edited by Papit on Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

shb
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Re: I Ran this TEST on My Own APAP Machine - You Can too

Post by shb » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:26 pm

Ok - minor point - but how did you get the pulse and sp02 graphs in the daily tab in SH ?

When I load them in - they only appear in the oximetry tab... I have s9, fx-pillow, don't use humidifier, and have ZEO and CMS50i ?

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Lizistired
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Re: I Ran this TEST on My Own APAP Machine - You Can too

Post by Lizistired » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:39 am

I find my CMS oximeters to be very accurate and have often graphed desats into the 80's with apneas that were unflagged because they weren't 10 seconds long. They usually happen during REM and don't last long but they are there. Here is an example. The green is O2 and the squiggly blue line is flow from ResScan.

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MaxDarkside
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Re: I Ran this TEST on My Own APAP Machine - You Can too

Post by MaxDarkside » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:56 am

I think maybe that you didn't de-sat as far as you do in some events because "At exactly 8:53am I took a very deep breath ..." You pre-loaded some O2. I notice in many of my events that my respiration goes lower and lower and then stops, starting the event in a somewhat de-satted level at the start, causing a further de-sat during the event. Also, if you have multiple events in close proximity you also may be starting in a less saturated position. I think my CMS 50E pulse ox is accurate to +/- 2% spO2, I forget, it's in the sheet and on their web I think.

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MaxDarkside
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Re: I Ran this TEST on My Own APAP Machine - You Can too

Post by MaxDarkside » Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:43 am

Another thing came to mind as well; metabolic consumption of O2. We are presuming that during events (natural or man-made) an equivalency in O2 consumption. I'm not sure, but that may vary based on what is happening in your sleep vs. laying tranquil awake. I suppose during some sleep you may consume O2 at a faster rate than laying tranquil awake, causing you to de-sat faster. I dunno. Maybe.

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avi123
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Re: I Ran this TEST on My Own APAP Machine - You Can too

Post by avi123 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:57 am

I don't understand the purpose of Papit's experiment. Testing the machine while awake does not yield much useful data b/c you either have a very obstructed or a very open airway and thus it does not accurately represent the situation while asleep.

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Last edited by avi123 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Papit
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Re: I Ran this TEST on My Own APAP Machine - You Can too

Post by Papit » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:49 pm

shb wrote: "Ok - minor point - but how did you get the pulse and sp02 graphs in the daily tab in SH ?
When I load them in - they only appear in the oximetry tab... I have s9, fx-pillow, don't use humidifier, and have ZEO and CMS50i ?
I had problems too and I think we're not the only ones. So I developed a set of instructions that now work consistently for me. They're posted in another thread, "How to get the CMS-50 Pulse-Ox to Work" or you can follow this link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=77043&p=702795#p702522

Enjoy. Have fun doing the test and let us know here how it goes.

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Lizistired
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Re: I Ran this TEST on My Own APAP Machine - You Can too

Post by Lizistired » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:09 pm

shb wrote:Ok - minor point - but how did you get the pulse and sp02 graphs in the daily tab in SH ?

When I load them in - they only appear in the oximetry tab... I have s9, fx-pillow, don't use humidifier, and have ZEO and CMS50i ?
Your 50i is probably not as well supported as the earlier cms models. There are specific instructions for the 50f that you might try. It works but is a bit more than I want to mess with.
How do you like the 50i? They seem to improve the functions with each model. I think yours will record multiple sessions. That would be handy for me because I am reluctant to records naps. I think there are pros and cons to all of them. I use my fingertip 50H for the alarm during naps because I can easily turn it off or when I want the display to stay visible, and the 50F when I want to record overnight for comfort.

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Papit
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Re: I Ran this TEST on My Own APAP Machine - You Can too

Post by Papit » Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:35 pm

MaxDarkside wrote: 'I think maybe that you didn't de-sat as far as you do in some events because "At exactly 8:53am I took a very deep breath ..." You pre-loaded some O2. I notice in many of my events that my respiration goes lower and lower and then stops, starting the event in a somewhat de-satted level at the start, causing a further de-sat during the event. Also, if you have multiple events in close proximity you also may be starting in a less saturated position. I think my CMS 50E pulse ox is accurate to +/- 2% spO2, I forget, it's in the sheet and on their web I think.'
Yes, good point about the deep breath I took. Also, that multiple events in close proximity are likely to have more significant impact than isolated ones. Those comments I think explain very well why my desat level held up so well even after a minute and only one apnea.

Have you tried the test yourself?

Were you surprised that the clearly graphed effect shows that both de-saturation and recovery saturation can occur so rapidly? I'm amazed by that and am a bit cautious in accepting it as real. But it sure looks real on the graphs.

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Re: I Ran this TEST on My Own APAP Machine - You Can too

Post by MaxDarkside » Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:03 pm

Papit wrote:Have you tried the test yourself?
When I got my pulse ox it occurred to me to hold my breath to see what would happen. I don't remember how long, about as long as I could tolerate, and I went into the 80s. Likely what you see is real, within the accuracy of the device. One clue of reality is a stepwise down, a raising of heart rate perhaps, and a faster step up as you gasp back to normalcy.

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shb
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Re: I Ran this TEST on My Own APAP Machine - You Can too

Post by shb » Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:40 pm

Lizistired wrote:
shb wrote:Ok - minor point - but how did you get the pulse and sp02 graphs in the daily tab in SH ?

When I load them in - they only appear in the oximetry tab... I have s9, fx-pillow, don't use humidifier, and have ZEO and CMS50i ?
Your 50i is probably not as well supported as the earlier cms models. There are specific instructions for the 50f that you might try. It works but is a bit more than I want to mess with.
How do you like the 50i? They seem to improve the functions with each model. I think yours will record multiple sessions. That would be handy for me because I am reluctant to records naps. I think there are pros and cons to all of them. I use my fingertip 50H for the alarm during naps because I can easily turn it off or when I want the display to stay visible, and the 50F when I want to record overnight for comfort.
Lizistired,

yes the CMS50i has an internal clock (which I have syned with the zeo and the S9 so they are already matched up to the second). It records the recording-start-time and then: sp02, pulse and perfusion-index for each second after then.. It is in a slightly different format to the others. And I hacked the SH sourced a little (in a very ugly, non-C++, inelegant way) so it will load for me - The only file I changed was: cms50_loader.cpp - I've already PM-ed Jedimark about the specific format of CMS-50i file...

Also, the 50i doesn't come with software "SPo2 Review" - it comes with "SPO2 Assistant" - which seems bit different from comments on here. For example: it doesn't save files as type: spoR or CSV. Only can save as type SPO2 - which is same format as what loads onto the PC from the unit itself.

Other than those: I am greatly impressed with it. The battery charge last for many nights. It does save multiple sessions (not sure the limit - but I've had 5 or 6 on there). It is not bulky, easy to understand and use and seems very accurate (not that I have much to compare with). I think it was great value.

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Re: I Ran this TEST on My Own APAP Machine - You Can too

Post by BlackSpinner » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:38 pm

Papit wrote:
Were you surprised that the clearly graphed effect shows that both de-saturation and recovery saturation can occur so rapidly? I'm amazed by that and am a bit cautious in accepting it as real. But it sure looks real on the graphs.
I would be if I hadn't had that stint a year ago in ER. I was amazed that when I hunched over to eat supper that my SPO2 dropped dramatically and recovered just as quickly when I sat up. Dozing off and waking up at 78% and watching it climb was quite a shock too.

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Re: I Ran this TEST on My Own APAP Machine - You Can too

Post by Lizistired » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:41 pm

If you have your your O2 graphs in sleepyhead, someone should be able to point you to the directions for getting them over to the "daily" tab. I know you have to start the oximeter and the xpap at the same time and then adjust the O2 time in sleepyhead to the second I think.

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Papit
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Re: I Ran this TEST on My Own APAP Machine - You Can too

Post by Papit » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:07 pm

BlackSpinner wrote:
Papit wrote: Were you surprised that the clearly graphed effect shows that both de-saturation and recovery saturation can occur so rapidly? I'm amazed by that and am a bit cautious in accepting it as real. But it sure looks real on the graphs.
"'I would be if I hadn't had that stint a year ago in ER. I was amazed that when I hunched over to eat supper that my SPO2 dropped dramatically and recovered just as quickly when I sat up. Dozing off and waking up at 78% and watching it climb was quite a shock too."
Papit wrote:
Papit wrote: 'I also find quite interesting, and surprising, that my O2 desats held at 93% and above during this breath-holding experiment . . . '
MaxDarkside wrote: 'I think maybe that you didn't de-sat as far as you do in some events because . . .You pre-loaded some O2. . . "At exactly 8:53am I took a very deep breath ..."
You've got that right, Max. I redid the experiment and this time made a point of not taking a deep breath or any extra breath. I just stopped breathing and held it for 33 seconds. That's as long as I could hold it. Again only one apnea was recorded, an OA; and two oxygen events. Check out the graphs. I flagged the precise moments when I stopped breathing and resumed breathing and placed corresponding flags on all the graphs.

It's fascinating that the graphs clearly show when I began holding my breath and when my breathing resumed. And also the respective lag times (just a few seconds) until oxygen de-saturation begins from a level of 98%; it bottoms at 83% in 40 seconds (longer than I held my breath), and recovers fully to 98% saturation in an incredible 10 seconds. It is amazing how well the human body has evolved into such an efficient design.

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Re: I Ran this TEST on My Own APAP Machine - You Can too

Post by MaxDarkside » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:10 pm

Nicely done. Thanks for doing that and showing all the charts. It is amazing how fast we "re-oxygenate". It's also interesting to see, like I've seen in other's postings here, that the heart rate does not necessarily "spike" hard. I do see such in my pulse-ox sleeping de-sats, but not always, and I wonder what the mechanism that controls rate is doing in our autonomics. I think I read it involves O2, CO2 and maybe some other factors.

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