Obtaining data with a machine which doesnt record data

About a year ago I switched from the Respironics machine to a smaller unit more conducing to my regular travel which is now part of my job. I purchased the Zzz-PAP Silent Traveler which I love; however, I do not think this device is recording any data on my sleep patterns which is something I did not think of at the time. I would like to know how I am doing with this machine. I am not feeling as rested as I have in the past, but there are other factors which could be impacting this.

Aside from having another sleep study using this machine, is anyone aware of something I can add or a third-party device to tell me this. I have seen a few devices on the market, one being a headstrap if I remember correctly, but I do not know if these are any good. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Why can't you switch back to your Resperonics unit for a week (If it records data)?

A couple of things people are using- I do not endorse either one- are the Zeo Sleep Monitor and a pulse oximeter. There are a couple of other items I know about, but do not know the names. I believe a search on the forum on the Zeo and pulse oximeters will yield plenty of reading. You can also look on Amazon for similar items with good descriptions and reviews. You can also do some self titrating in small increments changed about once a week and see if you note any improvement.
If you have not had a physical with bloodwork it may be time to see your GP. Your sleep doc may be able to help, too.
You may want to invest in a used data capable machines- there were several quite reasonably priced on the forum recently for when you are at home.
Good luck. I hope you can track this down and feel better soon.

LSAT wrote:Why can't you switch back to your Resperonics unit for a week (If it records data)?

LSAT- I can (and might), I just wanted to gather data on the machine I actually use. Maybe I have spent too many years in IT Security and Compliance

Mary Z wrote:A couple of things people are using- I do not endorse either one- are the Zeo Sleep Monitor and a pulse oximeter. There are a couple of other items I know about, but do not know the names. I believe a search on the forum on the Zeo and pulse oximeters will yield plenty of reading. You can also look on Amazon for similar items with good descriptions and reviews. You can also do some self titrating in small increments changed about once a week and see if you note any improvement.
If you have not had a physical with bloodwork it may be time to see your GP. Your sleep doc may be able to help, too.
You may want to invest in a used data capable machines- there were several quite reasonably priced on the forum recently for when you are at home.
Good luck. I hope you can track this down and feel better soon.

Zeo- that's what I was thinking of. Thanks Mary. I remember looking into that a while back, but they have a more affordable model now and last time I contact them they said I should get valid results even though I am using a CPAP. Thank you

1720a519 wrote: Maybe I have spent too many years in IT Security and Compliance

You want to obtain data from a machine that didn't record it, because you spent years in Security and Compliance.

Have you tried bright lights, disorienting noises and a rubber hose?

Like myself, however, most of us would draw the line at waterboarding of electrical appliances.

At least not while they are plugged in.

Nate

NateS wrote:

1720a519 wrote: Maybe I have spent too many years in IT Security and Compliance

You want to obtain data from a machine that didn't record it, because you spent years in Security and Compliance.

Nate you forgot this

1720a519 wrote:LSAT wrote:Why can't you switch back to your Resperonics unit for a week (If it records data)?LSAT- I can (and might), I just wanted to gather data on the machine I actually use.

and this

1720a519 wrote:

Mary Z wrote:A couple of things people are using- I do not endorse either one- are the Zeo Sleep Monitor and a pulse oximeter. There are a couple of other items I know about, but do not know the names.
You may want to invest in a used data capable machines- there were several quite reasonably priced on the forum recently for when you are at home.
Good luck. I hope you can track this down and feel better soon.

Zeo- that's what I was thinking of. Thanks Mary. I remember looking into that a while back, but they have a more affordable model now and last time I contact them they said I should get valid results even though I am using a CPAP. Thank you

Neither a pulse oximeter or a Zeo-like device is going to tell much about your CPAP therapy.

All the pulse oximeter tells you is what your oxygen saturations are throughout the night. Without apnea, hypopnea, leak, and flow data, the O2 sats are not very useful. Yeah, you might find out that your oxygen levels are getting very low during sleep. If so, you probably need a new sleep study. My first sleep study 12 years ago, my O2 sats were 98-100% all night. Yet, my AHI was 25.6, moderate obstructive sleep apnea. My recent study, my O2 sats were 90-92% with AHI of 66.7. The AHI is alarming but 90-92% didn't concern my sleep doc at all. It would be equivalent to going for a sleep study and all they did was put that finger monitor on you. By itself, it worthless in monitoring sleep apnea events.

All the ZEO is supposed to do is show the different stages of sleep throughout the night and how long you spent in them. This tells you NOTHING about your breathing. It would be equivalent to going for a sleep study and all they did was glue those electrodes on your head for EEG monitoring. I think ZEO and other products like it are totally worthless as far as telling you what's going on with your sleep apnea if you don't have CPAP data.

You could take your travel CPAP for a free testing of its pressure to your "friendly" DME supplier. That's about all you can do with that machine. If your data-capable machine is set at the same pressure, it will tell you more about what's going on with your breathing during sleep than anything else.

It likely varies a lot by person. In my case a pulse-ox and Zeo will give gross indications of my treatment, like if I'm getting effective treatment or not at all, but not much information comparing if my treatment is "real good" vs. "pretty good". For example, if in the middle of the night my hose pops off my spO2 will fall into the mid-80's, a clear sign of poor/no treatment. I suppose if I'm desating into the high 80's I'd be getting poor treatment and keeping in the mid-high 90's for me would be reasonably good treatment. In terms of the Zeo, I'm referring to the brain waves (Delta, Alpha, betas, etc...) and being able to see sleep structure disturbances. I'm just starting to explore the information in the Zeo brainwaves vs. ResMed data and am finding there is quite a lot of information, but the correlations are weak (a fuzzy view, like looking through a wax paper window). Also, the variance (how much the spO2 and heart rate jiggle and thrash, not just the level) is a good indication of what I'm going through at night.

VikingGnome wrote:Neither a pulse oximeter or a Zeo-like device is going to tell much about your CPAP therapy.

All the pulse oximeter tells you is what your oxygen saturations are throughout the night. Without apnea, hypopnea, leak, and flow data, the O2 sats are not very useful. Yeah, you might find out that your oxygen levels are getting very low during sleep. If so, you probably need a new sleep study. My first sleep study 12 years ago, my O2 sats were 98-100% all night. Yet, my AHI was 25.6, moderate obstructive sleep apnea. My recent study, my O2 sats were 90-92% with AHI of 66.7. The AHI is alarming but 90-92% didn't concern my sleep doc at all. It would be equivalent to going for a sleep study and all they did was put that finger monitor on you. By itself, it worthless in monitoring sleep apnea events.

All the ZEO is supposed to do is show the different stages of sleep throughout the night and how long you spent in them. This tells you NOTHING about your breathing. It would be equivalent to going for a sleep study and all they did was glue those electrodes on your head for EEG monitoring. I think ZEO and other products like it are totally worthless as far as telling you what's going on with your sleep apnea if you don't have CPAP data.

You could take your travel CPAP for a free testing of its pressure to your "friendly" DME supplier. That's about all you can do with that machine. If your data-capable machine is set at the same pressure, it will tell you more about what's going on with your breathing during sleep than anything else.

Sorry, but you are missing half the information presented by the pulse oximeter...

Did you notice the "pulse" part?

True obstructive apneas result in a drop in oxygen levels, but arousals result in an increase pulse rate. If you know how to read your pulse rate data and how to correlate it to your saturation data you end up with a lot of information.

The Zeo adds another data point. It also isn't perfect, but over time it can give you a reasonable approximation of how you sleep.

The same goes for the FitBit.

The data from the xPAP machine gives you only air flow data. This is informative, but is only one aspect of your sleep.

If your machine doesn't give you the flow data, these other monitors can provide a wealth of information, and in some cases that "other" information may be more valuable than air flow data.

HoseCrusher wrote: Sorry, but you are missing half the information presented by the pulse oximeter...

Did you notice the "pulse" part?

True obstructive apneas result in a drop in oxygen levels, but arousals result in an increase pulse rate. If you know how to read your pulse rate data and how to correlate it to your saturation data you end up with a lot of information.

I have to disagree. Your pulse rate can increase for a number reasons, not just arousals. Dreams, both nightmares and exciting, can increase pulse rate. Your pulse rate will increase with drop in oxygen levels. Your pulse rate can increase if the temperature in your bedroom is too hot or too cold for your body. If you have a fever or are sick, your pulse usually goes up. Your pulse rate can go up if you're awake and worrying about something or having anxiety. Physical pain can increase pulse rate (headache, back pain, pinching headgear, leg cramps). Biological signals like hunger, thirst, full bladder can all increase your pulse. Pulse rate can also increase by emotional state. If you're awake and frustrated or angry it will increase. Pulse rate by itself doesn't tell you squat about your breathing status.

HoseCrusher wrote:The data from the xPAP machine gives you only air flow data.

Not true. My S9 Elite data shows me Apnea and Hypopnea events and how long they last. It gives respiration rates, leaks and how bad and long they last. Snores, AHI index each hour. Flow limitations, Tidal Volume, Insipration time, and expiration time. There's way more than just air flow data.

Just pulse ox data and Zeo graphs really don't tell you much with any certainty. Your interpretation of their combined data is just a guess about what you think it means. Not even a doctor would look at just those and make any judgment about what they mean.

Well I disagree with your disagreement...

Yes, a persons pulse rate is variable, but there are patterns that go beyond variability and are destructive. The key to this is learning and recognizing what those destructive patterns are.

Also, remember that your breathing changes frequently, and will also change according to all those things you listed.

Your S9 measures air flow and calculates a machine scored data set according to the algorithm programed into the machine. It does a pretty good job, but when you have a sleep study they look at pulse rate, oxygen saturation, brain waves, respiratory effort, leg movement, sleep position, and so on to give you a real score on how you sleep.

Air flow is important, but it is only one channel of data. No doctor would make any judgements based upon only one channel of data. They are looking for confirmation from several channels, including the data from pulse rate and oxygen saturation.

For example if you were monitoring the air flow of someone that dove into a swimming pool and swam underwater to the other end, the air flow data would record an obstructive apnea event of 60 seconds or so. You could conclude from this that you have a problem. However, if you add the other channels of information, you would dismiss this obstructive apnea event and recognize this effort as exercise.

The various machines do a very good job of working with this one parameter, but it is only one channel of data.

I will mention that my cardiologist gave me more information about what I did during my sleep study (I wore my recording pulse oximeter during the study) than the sleep doctor did. He was able to point out which oxygen desaturations were significant and when I changed sleep position and when arousals occurred. This impressed upon me just how powerful the pulse oximeter data is.

He actually assisted me in my titration. He reviewed the pulse data, oxygen saturation, and the air flow data and helped me find a pressure range that worked the best for me. In contrast, after my sleep study the sleep doctor sent me off with a pressure setting of 5 - 18 and let it go at that with no follow up.

My cardiologist is a much better sleep doctor than that sleep doctor is...

The problem with pulse oximeter data is that you need training to be able to recognize the destructive patterns. Gross indications are easy. If you oxygen drops below 90%, that is not good. If your pulse rate exceeds 120 beats per minute, that is not good. Those are the gross indications.

Looking a pulse events you have to determine what change is significant. The default of a change of 6 beats per minute over a period of 8 seconds is not really useful in an overall survey. It may be useful during an event, but I was told to start with a change of 15 beats per minute over a period of 30 seconds. This is the first pass through the data. Once events are flagged, you change the numbers during each event to determine what is going on and its significance.

The Zeo adds another channel of information. The FitBit adds another channel.

Looking at someone sleeping, the xPAP machine gives data on air flow. The pulse oximeter gives you data on oxygen saturation and pulse rate. The Zeo gives you an indication of brain activity. And the FitBit gives you an indication of physical activity during sleep. Granted the air flow data is more developed, but if your machine doesn't give you air flow data, you can get a pretty good idea of what is going on during your sleep from the other 4 channels of data that are available.

NateS wrote:

1720a519 wrote: Maybe I have spent too many years in IT Security and Compliance

You want to obtain data from a machine that didn't record it, because you spent years in Security and Compliance.

Have you tried bright lights, disorienting noises and a rubber hose?

Like myself, however, most of us would draw the line at waterboarding of electrical appliances.

At least not while they are plugged in.

Nate

Okay Nata, ya got me
What I meant was because of my experience in IT, I want to replicate everything precisely in my collection of data and prefer to avoid changing the machine. I purchased a Zeo today, we'll see if that provides any interesting data. If necessary I can always go back for a proper sleep study with my machine.

Thank you everyone for the responses. And a lively debate
One thing I realized after reading some of the comments is that I really should know more about my Sleep Apnea. When I originally went in for the test a couple years ago, I did so thinking I was going to rule it out (that my snoring was nothing more then snoring, since I had not exhibited some of the traditional signs of Sleep Apnea like gasping for air. I was surprised to learn I had a severe case. I have been loyally using my machine, and even through I don't feel all refreshed in the morning, there are other reasons (like toddlers having bad dreams or other sleep depriving events), and I continued the treatment in the spirit of heart health.

My job change, which requires regular travel and hotel stays (usually 1-2 nights every week), is why I purchased a smaller travel machine. Scan forward a year, and now I realize the impact of that decision not having all my sleep data. I also switched to the SleepWeaver by Circadiance mask about 6 months ago (Love the mask but takes some getting used to, and I am sure that mask alone would fuel much debate).

I realize the Zeo is limited in the info it provides, but I am going to give it a shot starting tonight, and also look at their coaching tools which already have me thinking. I always knew behaviors like Caffeine intake can impact sleep, but being accountable to record this info will be a helpful tool for me. After I use my Zeo for a couple weeks, I think I will pull my data-collecting machine out of my closet and combine that with the Zeo for a couple weeks. Then I'll pay a visit to my Sleep Clinic, which I should do since it's been about 2 years, and take it from there (including another sleep study if recommended).

Lastly, I am going to read through some of the comments again and educate myself a bit. Thank you everyone.