Low AHI but still feel like I'm not sleeping well half the time

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
fruitbowl
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Low AHI but still feel like I'm not sleeping well half the time

Post by fruitbowl » Tue May 14, 2019 9:43 pm

Hi everyone, I have been using my Resmed A10 for close to 2 years now, and have gone through periods of both good and bad sleep, but the past couple months it really feels like it's mostly bad. I was originally diagnosed with an at-home oximeter test with an AHI of 11. Ever since I started therapy with my machine, my AHI has been relatively low, never once more than 2 AHI. However, the AHI number seems to have little to no relevance to how I feel a lot of the time. I can have 1.2 AHI and feel great or 0.6 and feel terrible. I certainly feel better than before I started therapy, but not by much sometimes.

When I started therapy I was given a nasal mask (can't remember the model) and put on 4-20 cm, it was the worst sleep I'd ever gotten, stopped using it after a week. I took it upon myself to increase the minimum pressure to 11 and switched to a Simplus FFM and felt a lot better than before, I've used this same mask and settings ever since for 1.5 years. It probably wasn't a good idea to take matters into my own hands without titrating but I was desperate at the time.

An issue that I've noticed is that I hardly ever have obstructive events while sleeping, the vast majority of interruptions are either hypopneas or central apneas. I've uploaded what is a fairly typical night's sleep
typicalnight.PNG
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Low AHI but this particular night I felt extremely tired and foggy and had weird muscle twitching the next day. Below is what most of these central apneas look like in Sleepyhead:
postarousal.PNG
postarousal.PNG (51.05 KiB) Viewed 3794 times
I've also been noticing weird increases and rapid breathing at random times during the night, not sure if these are legit wakeups or just normal sleep behavior
blips.PNG
blips.PNG (78.57 KiB) Viewed 3794 times
Almost every morning the past couple weeks I've been waking up with an extremely dry mouth, but since I'm using a FFM I'm not sure what to really do about my dry mouth problem, I've tried a chin strap but it made little difference and was really difficult to sleep with.

I'm basically wondering what the heck is going on with my sleep, I've been trying to determine what steps to take for improvement but I'm baffled at this point and more than slightly paranoid about having complex sleep apnea. I've tried all sorts of things like lowering the pressure, replacing my mask cushion, different humidifier levels, different sleeping positions, etc with no consistent improvement.

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Pugsy
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Re: Low AHI but still feel like I'm not sleeping well half the time

Post by Pugsy » Tue May 14, 2019 10:12 pm

Welcome to the forum.

First thing to do...edit your equipment profile and choose the correct machine to avoid confusion later.
You have chosen the wrong machine...probably because you didn't see the correct model listed...it's there but down in the R's for ResMed instead of being up in the A's with the other AirSense models.

When we don't feel the good numbers we are getting then we look for other potential culprits that might be messing with restorative sleep.

Do you take any medications of any kind? If so, what?
Do you have any other physical or mental health issues that might affect your sleep or how you feel during the day?
Do you sleep soundly for the most part or do you wake often? If you wake often approx how many times do you remember?
Do you normally get around the 7 hours sleep shown on this report or is it often less than those hours?

That central...not a real asleep central. Looks like you woke up (you may or may not remember waking up) probably because of the large leak and simply paused your own breathing while awake and then went back to sleep. We ignore any events that get flagged when we aren't asleep.

Full face masks don't always prevent dry mouth. Any number of things can cause dry mouth but we often suspect mouth breathing first.
Even with maximum humidity and a full face mask the humidifier can't crank out enough moisture to hydrate the oral cavity well for some people. They just get dry mouth easier than others for any number of reasons. The humidifier was originally designed to help with the nasal cavity dryness...much smaller cavity. The humidifier just can't always handle the dryness in the much larger oral cavity.
Medications are also a common cause...look at your meds to see if they might be a factor.

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fruitbowl
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Re: Low AHI but still feel like I'm not sleeping well half the time

Post by fruitbowl » Wed May 15, 2019 12:23 am

Hi Pugsy, thanks so much for the response. Fixed my profile. As to your questions:

-I do not currently take any medications

-No physical issues that I can think of, I'm relatively fit and in my 20's. As for mental health issues I really only have ADHD which can sometimes affect my sleep by making me feel more awake at night time. Don't have depression or anything like that.

-I sleep somewhat soundly, I usually have 1-2 remembered wake ups near the end of my sleep usually due to dry mouth or bathroom.

-I normally get 6-9 hours, 7 is a good average.

I have another issue that I forgot to mention, sometimes when I'm falling asleep I'll drift off and my breathing will stop, jolting me awake. This can happen 2-3 times before I finally fall asleep which is fairly distressing. However when I look back at the data they are not flagged as apneas or hypopneas. Is this something to be concerned about or is it just a result of the body and brain making the transition from awake to asleep?

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Julie
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Re: Low AHI but still feel like I'm not sleeping well half the time

Post by Julie » Wed May 15, 2019 4:32 am

Those are clear airway events... 'sleep wake junk' that many worry about as being 'centrals', but are not meaningful as such. Likely when you get the rest of your sleep working better they may fade away to an extent.

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Re: Low AHI but still feel like I'm not sleeping well half the time

Post by ajack » Wed May 15, 2019 5:42 am

I would raise the pressure by 1cm. I wouldn't give the CA a second thought, see the large breaths preceding it, you are waiting for the co2 to catch up and trigger a breath. A real CA doesn't look like this. it's an hourglass on its side shape.

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Re: Low AHI but still feel like I'm not sleeping well half the time

Post by Pugsy » Wed May 15, 2019 6:41 am

For any sort of apnea event to actually be flagged it has to last at least 10 seconds and there has to be a certain amount of flow reduction too. So 2 main criteria for a flag...duration and amount of reduction in the flow rate.
Perhaps what you are having with those sleep onset transitions are normal sleep onset centrals that don't last at least 10 seconds....and thus no flag.
Some people have this happen often and so repeatedly that it becomes a serious problem because they can't ever actually get to sleep.
So all night long lots of these sleep onset centrals and no sleep. Doesn't sound like that is happening with you and if that's the case...the doctors won't do much about it. Heck, it's sometimes hard to get them to do anything about it when people are having a lot of those sort of centrals during sleep stage transition.
I don't know if that is what it happening with you at sleep onset...maybe...it's about my best guess. :lol:
You could zoom in on the flow rate at the beginning of the night and look for arousal breathing where there is a flow reduction that is rather short and/or smaller than usual. Sometimes it is really hard to spot minor differences though.

There's so much more to getting good restorative sleep and feeling those good numbers than just not having very many apnea events and getting a nice low AHI. Getting good numbers is the easy part...actually feeling them isn't always so easy because there are so many other things that can affect our sleep and how we feel besides sleep disordered breathing issues.

Obviously all those nosy questions was to do some detective work to see if any of the common potential causes for poor sleep quality might be a factor in your not feeling those good numbers. We look for how many hours a person is sleeping...are those sleep hours fragmented....we also look for medication side effects as a potential culprit for not feeling so great or even not sleeping so great.
I can't count the number of times I see people here complaining of fatigue and they are on medications well known to cause fatigue.
The best cpap therapy in the world can't fix medication side effects.
Same thing with the other health issues question...this helps me weed out meds sometimes. :lol:

Obviously we struck out in looking for the obvious and usual suspects in your case....so you have to do more detective work in an effort to try to figure out why you don't feel as good as you expect you should feel.

You might be having a lot of arousals for some reason that you don't remember...anything that messes with sleep quality/architecture (those needed cycles in normal progression and normal %) messes with how we feel. So you might take the time to learn about how to spot arousal breathing and then do some microscopic work looking for flow rates that are irregular and might be arousal related.
We don't have to remember an arousal for it to be enough to cause a problem and there doesn't necessarily have to be a flagged event associated with it for it to mess with sleep.
The videos here explain how to scroll through the flow rate and look for irregular breathing which might mean arousals.
http://freecpapadvice.com/sleepyhead-free-software

Your diagnostic AHI wasn't all that remarkable...11 is rather "mild" but I use that term loosely because it doesn't always reflect severity in terms of effects on the body. My own OSA was just 12 per hour during non REM but rocking and rolling during REM with 53 per hour but those 12 events per hour were rather long in duration and I was having desats down into the low 70s%...
I don't know how "bad" your OSA was in terms of stress on the body with oxygen desats...
I mention all this because there is a problem that sort of goes along with "mild" OSA or even not enough criteria met to meet OSA diagnosis that might be an issue for you and responsible for your not feeling those good numbers. It's called UARS or Upper Airway Resistance Syndrome. Google it and see if you think any of it fits your situation.
I don't know that you have it but it wouldn't be impossible. It might explain the low numbers and not feeling so great. It's not an easy diagnosis to make.
The fix is cpap...but usually more pressure is needed beyond what gives us a good AHI. These machines weren't designed to treat UARS or report anything that might help us treat UARS...we just have to do some trial and error stuff in an effort to figure out what makes us feel better.
Almost always when I see documented UARS here on the forum the people end up having to use more pressure just to feel better than the machine wants or needs to give. The algorithm is obstructive apnea...not UARS...so the machine won't go higher.

So while there's really nothing on the report that points to you needing more pressure....if (I stress the IF part) you do have an underlying UARS component going on you might do a little better with even more minimum pressure past what is effective for the OSA stuff.

Finally maybe your not feeling so great has nothing to do with sleep disordered breathing and there's nothing the machine can do about stuff that isn't airway related.
Maybe time for an extensive work up to rule out other potential culprits...normal labs which should include thyroid function as well as maybe some special labs like vitamin D levels and hormone levels.

Another thought too...if your not feeling like you got good sleep is because you are just plain sleepy a lot during the day...there are some people who despite effective cpap therapy still have excessive residual sleepiness. Happens in about 10% of the cases the last I read or depending whose paper you are reading.

So what symptoms are you having to make you think you aren't feeling as good as you like?
Is it fatigue or excessive sleepiness??? They aren't necessarily the same.

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fruitbowl
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Re: Low AHI but still feel like I'm not sleeping well half the time

Post by fruitbowl » Thu May 16, 2019 2:29 pm

My diagnosis was rather mild in terms of severity as well, I think I only dropped to 88% O2 once during the test, SpO2 was above 92% the majority of the night with small dips indicating interruptions.

You've given me a lot to think about, I'll definitely get a full work-up as soon as I can, it's been a couple years so it's probably a good idea.

Usually it's more fatigue rather than sleepiness. I wake up and don't feel like I got a good night's sleep but also don't feel like sleeping any longer. I can stay awake most of the day, it's mostly just mental fog that affects me. I Googled UARS and it feels like I really fit the bill. I think I'm going to try the chin strap again to hopefully alleviate some of the dry mouth problems, and maybe start bumping the pressure up little by little to see if I feel any better.

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Re: Low AHI but still feel like I'm not sleeping well half the time

Post by babydinosnoreless » Thu May 16, 2019 9:16 pm

Some who have trouble with chin straps have said a foam cervical collar helps.

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dogsarelife
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Re: Low AHI but still feel like I'm not sleeping well half the time

Post by dogsarelife » Fri May 17, 2019 12:10 am

Hi, I just wanted to chime in that I have UARS, on top of the OSA.

my AHI has always been very low and my first sleep doctor had no idea and suggested I was mental and blew me off but my 2nd sleep doc took me seriously and gave me a pressure esophageal manometer to sleep with during my sleep study, or what is called Pes by sleep doctors, and it showed I needed anywhere from 12-18 cm H2O to overcome my upper airway resistance. For some reason my sleep doctor then prescribed me an ipap of 14 cm H2O, but I found I need an IPAP or 18-19 cm H2O all night long to wake up feeling somewhat rested. honestly I feel even better going up to 15.8/19.8, and as Pugsy said, no machine ever wanted to go that high with me just via its algorithm.

I'm grateful Pugsy told me that and it's a very important thing to keep in mind in my opinion if you do feel any benefit from increasing your minimum pressure, which also takes time to ascertain. It's good to keep a journal of changes, how long you stayed at a certain set pressure, etc.

I also found that I had to inch up my pressure bit by bit instead of all at once? your mileage may vary with that one.

I wish everyone with UARS could have access to my sleep doctor. Even though he is by no means perfect and I'm annoyed he didn't give me an auto bilevel pap, it was nice to be validated about the UARS still causing me to feel like crap even though the OSA was well treated, and to be able to get that pressure esophageal manometry measurement range, because I would have been too timid to get my pressure up to 19.8 cm H2O ipap on my own.

I think I read in a paper that the pressures needed to overcome the upper airway resistance will be greater with a full face mask than a nasal mask? I also tried to go into sleepyhead or I guess what is now OSCAR and also look at my breath wave forms and get things so that the breaths were rounded at the top, rather than v-shaped or some other weird shape other than mostly rounded, per this paper about flow limitations.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4688581/


Oh and I also had to relearn how to breathe, meaning I have had to retrain myself to nose breathe and work on getting my tongue into proper position so I don't lose the pressure out of my mouth too bad. if you search perrybucksdad there is a thread about how he went from mouth breather to nose breather. may be of use to you too!

Hope these tips help. and please anyone if I misspoke, feel free to correct me.

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Re: Low AHI but still feel like I'm not sleeping well half the time

Post by fruitbowl » Fri May 17, 2019 2:51 am

dogsarelife wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:10 am
Hi, I just wanted to chime in that I have UARS, on top of the OSA.

my AHI has always been very low and my first sleep doctor had no idea and suggested I was mental and blew me off but my 2nd sleep doc took me seriously and gave me a pressure esophageal manometer to sleep with during my sleep study, or what is called Pes by sleep doctors, and it showed I needed anywhere from 12-18 cm H2O to overcome my upper airway resistance. For some reason my sleep doctor then prescribed me an ipap of 14 cm H2O, but I found I need an IPAP or 18-19 cm H2O all night long to wake up feeling somewhat rested. honestly I feel even better going up to 15.8/19.8, and as Pugsy said, no machine ever wanted to go that high with me just via its algorithm.

I'm grateful Pugsy told me that and it's a very important thing to keep in mind in my opinion if you do feel any benefit from increasing your minimum pressure, which also takes time to ascertain. It's good to keep a journal of changes, how long you stayed at a certain set pressure, etc.

I also found that I had to inch up my pressure bit by bit instead of all at once? your mileage may vary with that one.

I wish everyone with UARS could have access to my sleep doctor. Even though he is by no means perfect and I'm annoyed he didn't give me an auto bilevel pap, it was nice to be validated about the UARS still causing me to feel like crap even though the OSA was well treated, and to be able to get that pressure esophageal manometry measurement range, because I would have been too timid to get my pressure up to 19.8 cm H2O ipap on my own.

I think I read in a paper that the pressures needed to overcome the upper airway resistance will be greater with a full face mask than a nasal mask? I also tried to go into sleepyhead or I guess what is now OSCAR and also look at my breath wave forms and get things so that the breaths were rounded at the top, rather than v-shaped or some other weird shape other than mostly rounded, per this paper about flow limitations.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4688581/


Oh and I also had to relearn how to breathe, meaning I have had to retrain myself to nose breathe and work on getting my tongue into proper position so I don't lose the pressure out of my mouth too bad. if you search perrybucksdad there is a thread about how he went from mouth breather to nose breather. may be of use to you too!

Hope these tips help. and please anyone if I misspoke, feel free to correct me.
Thanks for your input, it was really helpful. That article that you linked was really interesting and caused me to look closer at the "shape" of my breathing. I'm getting a LOT of breathing periods over the course of the night that look like this:
weirdbreathing.PNG
weirdbreathing.PNG (11.98 KiB) Viewed 3625 times
To my untrained eye that looks a lot like the disordered breathing in the article. I think I'm going to see a sleep doctor about UARS and start bumping up the pressure on my machine in the meantime and monitor the results. I also ordered a nasal mask, I've avoided them ever since my terrible first week using one but I think it might be time to make the switch.

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Pugsy
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Re: Low AHI but still feel like I'm not sleeping well half the time

Post by Pugsy » Fri May 17, 2019 6:12 am

dogsarelife wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:10 am
I'm annoyed he didn't give me an auto bilevel pap,
If it's any consolation to you having auto adjusting capabilities most likely wouldn't do much for you anyway. The auto algorithm isn't designed to look for UARS stuff and it would probably just sit by and twiddle its little thumbs. In its little mind the lower pressure to prevent the OSA related stuff is all it is supposed to do and it wouldn't go higher even if it could.

You just gave me an idea for another "want" in terms of machine design...I have always wanted a machine that could accurately measure sleep vs awake breathing...now I want a machine with an algorithm designed to fight UARS with the understanding that it's not the same as OSA. It would have to be a totally different auto adjusting algorithm than what we have now.
I know....big wants...but hey, a girl can dream. :lol:
Here's the deal....if I thought of it I bet someone else has also. They might be working on it right now...might be years before we see it but it wouldn't surprise me one bit to know someone is at least trying.

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Re: Low AHI but still feel like I'm not sleeping well half the time

Post by dogsarelife » Fri May 17, 2019 9:23 am

Pugsy wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 6:12 am
dogsarelife wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:10 am
I'm annoyed he didn't give me an auto bilevel pap,
If it's any consolation to you having auto adjusting capabilities most likely wouldn't do much for you anyway. The auto algorithm isn't designed to look for UARS stuff and it would probably just sit by and twiddle its little thumbs. In its little mind the lower pressure to prevent the OSA related stuff is all it is supposed to do and it wouldn't go higher even if it could.

You just gave me an idea for another "want" in terms of machine design...I have always wanted a machine that could accurately measure sleep vs awake breathing...now I want a machine with an algorithm designed to fight UARS with the understanding that it's not the same as OSA. It would have to be a totally different auto adjusting algorithm than what we have now.
I know....big wants...but hey, a girl can dream. :lol:
Here's the deal....if I thought of it I bet someone else has also. They might be working on it right now...might be years before we see it but it wouldn't surprise me one bit to know someone is at least trying.
I love these ideas! I have, in times of longing, looked up researcher videos at ResMed so I could pass these ideas on to them - that is - getting the machine to differentiate between awake vs asleep, putting the autoset for her algorithm on all its machines- and now I would like to suggest research to have some UARS algorithms produced!

My personal experience has also been that the ResMed software isn't great at identifying hypopneas? I think the current algorithm could use some tweaking there.

It would definitely make Resmed a lot more $$

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Re: Low AHI but still feel like I'm not sleeping well half the time

Post by fruitbowl » Fri May 17, 2019 3:05 pm

Turned up the minimum pressure from 9 to 11 last night and got a super weird, unpleasant nights sleep. Tons of wake ups that I actually remember due to aerophagia and dry mouth as well as lots of breathing problems not flagged by the machine. Seems like I just can't keep my mouth shut during sleep. Kind of a bummer that I can't even handle a pressure of 11. Worth sticking it out a couple more nights? Also would the nasal mask eliminate the aerophagia problem?

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Re: Low AHI but still feel like I'm not sleeping well half the time

Post by Pugsy » Fri May 17, 2019 3:14 pm

Go up more slowly...smaller increments. Give your body a chance to adjust. You made too big of a change and the body sad "no way are you going to do this to me".

Unknown if a nasal mask might help deter the aerophagia monster.
What might happen though is nasal masks often require less pressure to get the same job done as a full face mask. If all things were equal between masks it wouldn't be that way but all things aren't equal. That lower back strap that so many full face masks need and use for anchoring the bottom of the FFM sometimes causes a problem. The lower back strap tends to pull the bottom of the jaw back just a little or maybe a lot depending on the mask and how tight someone gets it.
So if higher pressures cause aerophagia but you could maybe use less pressure with a nasal mask then maybe it will keep the aerophagia monster away.

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Re: Low AHI but still feel like I'm not sleeping well half the time

Post by zonker » Fri May 17, 2019 3:23 pm

fruitbowl wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:43 pm

Almost every morning the past couple weeks I've been waking up with an extremely dry mouth, but since I'm using a FFM I'm not sure what to really do about my dry mouth problem, I've tried a chin strap but it made little difference and was really difficult to sleep with.
welcome to the zoo, he said belatedly. :lol: as baby already suggested, try a foam cervical collar instead of a chinstrap. you can find it at your local drugstore in amongst the other "old people" stuff like canes and walkers and such. (i can say old people cuz i are one!) works a treat at keeping your jaw up and the airway more open.

as to the dry mouth, this isn't by any means a preventative, but it will help. while you are in that drugstore, look for xylimelts. these are small lozenges that you place between cheek and teeth. there is a wee bit of adhesive on one side to help it stick to the teeth. what these lozenges do is promote saliva while you sleep. they really work well.

good luck!
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