Snoring device not a treatment for sleep apnea

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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roster
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Snoring device not a treatment for sleep apnea

Post by roster » Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:31 am

With regards to an earlier thread, viewtopic.php?t=28887&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 , :
Resting uneasy: Heavy marketing of anti-snoring device worries some
Tuesday, August 05, 2008
By Steve Twedt, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Daniel Marsula/Post-GazetteA California firm's aggressive marketing of a medical device to treat snoring is making some sleep specialists uneasy.

In cable TV television ads, including high-profile ones during broadcasts of the Stanley Cup and NBA finals, the Pure Sleep Co. has been advertising its PureSleep intraoral device as a way to stop snoring, all for two payments of $29.95 plus $7.95 shipping and handling.

And you can order the device without seeing a physician or a dentist. You must, however, answer a series of 19 questions on the company's Web site, such as whether you have chronic asthma, loose teeth or a sore jaw.

"If you fail [to give appropriate answers], you will not get it," said Noel Lindsay, a Pittsburgh native and Carnegie Mellon University graduate who is chairman and CEO of Sleep Science Partners, the parent company of Pure Sleep.

Because the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has not approved any over-the-counter medical device to treat snoring, a prescription is required for PureSleep.

That has dental sleep specialists wondering -- how do people get a prescription without seeing a doctor or dentist?

"The entire reason that the FDA denied [over-the-counter] access to [these] devices was not to limit access, but to make sure patients were being cared for by a dentist who would help minimize the side effects," said Dr. B. Gail Demko, who is chairing a panel for the American Academy of Dental Sleep Medicine looking into anti-snoring devices such as PureSleep.

Dr. Robert Rogers, whose Bloomfield practice exclusively treats patients diagnosed with sleep disorder breathing problems, also pointed out that "it is well known in the medical profession that paper surveys are very limited and often inaccurate in ruling out diseases."

People may not know they have an underlying sleep disorder, he said, so they can't be expected to provide reliable answers to the questionnaire.

Mr. Lindsay said Dr. Douglas Fenton, the California dentist who invented PureSleep, "is the prescribing doctor generally." Asked if Dr. Fenton confers with doctors in the patient's home state, or if Pure Sleep follows up with patients, Mr. Lindsay declined to give specifics.

"I don't want to tell potential competitors how we do what we do." He also declined to provide sales figures for PureSleep, which came on the market in November.

"We believe we have a set of processes that are based on gathering the necessary information and crosschecking them in a way that is really powerful and clinically valid," he said.

Mr. Lindsay estimated that "probably more than 75 percent" of those answering the questions will be able to order PureSleep, but added that "we're extremely careful to make sure that the product is not available to anyone in any way unless they answer the questions in exactly the way they need to answer them."

One worry, say Drs. Demko and Rogers, is that snoring may be a sign the patient has a more serious medical condition, such as sleep apnea, that would go undiagnosed.

Long term, that can result in chronic sleep deprivation, with serious implications for a person's heart and general health. One National Center on Sleep Disorders Research study found those with severe apnea have significantly higher death rates.

Mr. Lindsay calls that "a fallacious argument. That argument would prevent you from selling aspirin to someone who has a headache because they might really have a brain tumor."

He also pointed out that PureSleep makes no claims that it treats sleep apnea; that it is simply a device to stop snoring. Dentists already prescribe these anti-snoring devices, he said. The primary difference with PureSleep is that a person does not have to sit in a dentist's chair to get one.

"We are trying to make a health-care service more accessible and affordable."

The PureSleep device works by moving the sleeper's lower jaw slightly forward, opening the airway.

It is made from two kinds of plastic that you boil then mold by sticking it in your mouth and biting down. The upper and lower pieces fit together in one of three possible positions.

But oral devices come with some risk, including a painful jaw and a distorted bite. Those usually pass within a few hours, but longer-term risks include jaw displacement, or loosening and movement of teeth. One study found that among those who have used an appliance for more than seven years, 85 percent had "significant orthodontic side effects."

"A dentist needs to fit it and follow the patient closely over time" to look for possible problems, said Dr. Rogers. "In my experience, the non-customized appliances are typically bulky and ill fitting, and not adequately adjustable."

Mr. Lindsay willingly concedes that custom-fitted oral appliances are better -- but they are also more expensive and require office visits.

A custom-fitted oral device can cost a couple of thousand dollars, though the cost to the patient may be a few hundred dollars if covered by insurance. Faced with that, people may decide a device such as PureSleep is worth a try.

On his Web site, Dr. Fenton writes that PureSleep "has been 80-90% effective based on my experience and that of fellow physicians and dentists" over the past decade.

Dr. Demko is not convinced. "To have no dentist in the loop allows patients to get into real dental problems that can lead to the loss of teeth or very expensive dentistry in the future."

Snoring affects an estimated 35 to 40 percent of adults, and it can be a simple annoyance or a symptom of a serious sleep disorder. One common treatment prescribed by physicians is a pressurized air mask that emits a continuous flow of air to keep the airway open.

But the masks can be cumbersome and noisy, and an alternative approach -- oral devices resembling athletic mouth guards -- has gained popularity the last 15 years.

With a customized device, a dentist makes the mold and supervises its fitting. With anti-snoring devices such as PureSleep, the patient makes the mold at home.

"What we find is that if people have a hard time, it's either in the fitting process or they find it awkward to have something in their mouth when they're sleeping," said Mr. Lindsay.

But he also insists that "our product really works for a large part of the population."

Whatever its market share, though, PureSleep may find it difficult to convince dental sleep specialists that it's a winner.

Said Dr. Rogers: "'Boil-and-bite' appliances have been around for at least 20 years and, from time to time, manufacturers attempt to sidestep proper medical protocol in an effort to maximize sales. The consensus of our profession is that the patient is placed at great medical and dental risk when this occurs."Steve Twedt can be reached at stwedt@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1963.
First published on August 5, 2008 at 12:00 am
Source: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08218/901809-28.stm
TSSleepy wrote:I tried one of these for a couple weeks while waiting for sleep study and titration. All it did for me was make it so that my jaw was pulled forward a couple millimeters when I woke in the morning, causing my bite to be out of alignment and my jaw to ache. And it didn't last very long before losing its shape.

In retrospect, the whole idea is silly and makes no sense for my particular problem. My tongue and soft palate are just plain too big. I'd probably need to pull my jaw forward a half inch to keep my airway from collapsing!

I simply can't imagine a dental device working for my obstruction...it would take maxillo mandibular advancement surgery. And I'd rather just go ahead and get a tracheostomy then go through that. I'm glad CPAP is working.
Last edited by roster on Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

Guest

Post by Guest » Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:18 am

My dentist's follow up care was a phone call from his receptionist demanding the $183 co-payment.

So, PS's care means "if you don't answer all our web questions correctly, you don't get one".

Oooooo........ I'm so impressed with dentists right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for posting that Rooster! I wish more people would see it.

Cheers,
Babette

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Snoredog
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Post by Snoredog » Wed Aug 06, 2008 12:19 pm

I see PureSleep trying to bring a simple inexpensive solution to those who need this device, the alternative is $3500 to $5500 for a sleep study and thousands more on doctor bills.
"We are trying to make a health-care service more accessible and affordable."

The PureSleep device works by moving the sleeper's lower jaw slightly forward, opening the airway.
This is a very simple device offering a low cost solution to an age old problem, it costs less than $100, visit your Dentist and you will spend >$350-$650 for a similar device or more.

Save your $1500 annual insurance dental coverage for your teeth. If this device doesn't work you are only out less than $100 instead of 5 or 6 times that amount.

We act like everything is "okay" and protecting us if it is FDA approved, well we know them idiots cannot keep and track down tainted dog food much less peppers grown in a sewer or was it tomatoes?

When you consider the amount of harm done by this device the FDA needs to stick its head back up its ass and go away.

FYI: The PureSleep device used to be marketed under another name and sold OTC at Longs Drugs and other places if not mistaken by the name of Snoreban for $29.95, so as you can see the more involved the FDA gets along with ADA the higher the price goes to the consumer.

What you are seeing here is the good-ole-boy network protecting their cash cow, just like we have to deal with the POS FDA/Medicare/DME BS and its ridiculously inflated costs associated with this therapy.

You have to look at what a typical Dentist makes per hour and ask yourself, can they make me a device like this for less than $100 bucks? Most Dentists would laugh and say are you kidding? If you figure they make $75 to $150 per hour (many much more than that), if they had the ability to make it there is no way they could take impressions, make a mold, produce the acrylic, fit and adjust it for under $100.

That is why you see dental devices $1700 and more for sleep devices, then just like CPAP people don't like the discomfort and don't use it every night so they are getting no therapy at all.

I'm for the little guy PureSleep here because we know by moving the mandible forward even if only by a fractional amount it will help. Even if it doesn't optimally work, if they use it one night it gets the patient thinking about it and addressing the snoring issue where they will learn more about OSA.

PureSleep should include informational packet about snoring and more serious condition associated with that snoring should a patient wish to pursue more advanced treatment.

I think we need to put Paris Hilton & Brittney Spears in the FDA and run it, they would do a better job.

This article says the FDA has never approved a snorning device, yet there are over 150 of them on the market.

someday science will catch up to what I'm saying...

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Post by SleepyNoMore » Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:19 pm

Snoredog wrote:I see PureSleep trying to bring a simple inexpensive solution to those who need this device, the alternative is $3500 to $5500 for a sleep study and thousands more on doctor bills.
"We are trying to make a health-care service more accessible and affordable."

The PureSleep device works by moving the sleeper's lower jaw slightly forward, opening the airway.
This is a very simple device offering a low cost solution to an age old problem, it costs less than $100, visit your Dentist and you will spend >$350-$650 for a similar device or more.

Save your $1500 annual insurance dental coverage for your teeth. If this device doesn't work you are only out less than $100 instead of 5 or 6 times that amount.

We act like everything is "okay" and protecting us if it is FDA approved, well we know them idiots cannot keep and track down tainted dog food much less peppers grown in a sewer or was it tomatoes?

When you consider the amount of harm done by this device the FDA needs to stick its head back up its ass and go away.

FYI: The PureSleep device used to be marketed under another name and sold OTC at Longs Drugs and other places if not mistaken by the name of Snoreban for $29.95, so as you can see the more involved the FDA gets along with ADA the higher the price goes to the consumer.
What you are seeing here is the good-ole-boy network protecting their cash cow, just like we have to deal with the POS FDA/Medicare/DME BS and its ridiculously inflated costs associated with this therapy.

You have to look at what a typical Dentist makes per hour and ask yourself, can they make me a device like this for less than $100 bucks? Most Dentists would laugh and say are you kidding? If you figure they make $75 to $150 per hour (many much more than that), if they had the ability to make it there is no way they could take impressions, make a mold, produce the acrylic, fit and adjust it for under $100.

That is why you see dental devices $1700 and more for sleep devices, then just like CPAP people don't like the discomfort and don't use it every night so they are getting no therapy at all.

I'm for the little guy PureSleep here because we know by moving the mandible forward even if only by a fractional amount it will help. Even if it doesn't optimally work, if they use it one night it gets the patient thinking about it and addressing the snoring issue where they will learn more about OSA.

PureSleep should include informational packet about snoring and more serious condition associated with that snoring should a patient wish to pursue more advanced treatment.

I think we need to put Paris Hilton & Brittney Spears in the FDA and run it, they would do a better job.

This article says the FDA has never approved a snorning device, yet there are over 150 of them on the market.
SNM/SleepyNoMore

Thank You "SNOREDOG" will live in our Hearts forever...

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and Friends that Care. :)

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Post by Snoredog » Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:52 pm

SleepyNoMore wrote: SnoreDog ,

Here is a similiar device I found for $45.00 at http://www.snoremeds.com . Is this the device you are talking about from Longs Drug Store for $29.99????
See there is even a cheaper dealie available!

yep that looks like the one Longs used to carry and nearly the same as PureSleep, price difference is $45 vs. $69, someone has to pay for all that TV advertising

I have a friend who is an old fashioned Dentist, he has a Dental lab in his office, does all his own lab work (making dentures, crowns, partials etc.) he must have 50 of those tongue devices on his wall, one thing he said about those, not a single one of them worked, but the mandible advancement devices do work to a certain extent. When you look at the MMA surgery procedure where they cut the mandible and add bone grafts, that is what they are doing moving the mandible forward which takes the tongue with it.
someday science will catch up to what I'm saying...

unknown

Re: Pure Sleep Co. Drawing Attention

Post by unknown » Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:18 am

I purchased Pure Sleep. My wife says that reduces my snoring to about 20% of what it was which is a good step forward. However, after wearing it for 3 weeks I noticed now that my jaw is sore after waking up. I am trying to run an experiment to determine if the soreness is related to a stiff new pillow where my jaw hangs free off the side of the pillow (its really, really stiff), however, it is most likely related to the device. I know that I have a clenched jaw at night so it appears that because of the clenching (usually I clench my mouth shut) I am now clenching down on the device. The soreness is caused by the muscles as I try to close my mouth completely, for example, as in a hard chewing action. I can open my mouth fine as wide as I want without any soreness. I am trying the light rubbing approach as well to see if that makes the soreness go away. For me, the slight push out of the lower jaw is not the main cause of snoring so I may try another device with the setting set so that my lower jaw is not held out as far.

Obviously, the best way to manage my snoring is by losing weight and I am working on that. I have a trigger point on my weight that at 205 I stop snoring. In addition, I had rhino surgery to improve breathing and I believe this has also caused additional noise from the upper nasal passage versus just the palette.

I would like to see studies performed to determine long-term oral impact.

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Re: Pure Sleep Co. Drawing Attention

Post by LoQ » Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:23 pm

I'm sort of interested in these devices. I feel like I need a chinstrap, but I can't stand them. So I wonder if one of these devices would keep my mouth shut like a chin strap would. However, this gives me pause:
longer-term risks include jaw displacement, or loosening and movement of teeth. One study found that among those who have used an appliance for more than seven years, 85 percent had "significant orthodontic side effects."

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Re: Pure Sleep Co. Drawing Attention

Post by ca_hosehead » Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:32 pm

All of these devices work by advancing the jaw forward, which helps to open the airway. Puresleep has three positions that you can set to change the amount of jaw displacement that you get. I don't see that the SnoreMed has any adjustment at all.

The Puresleep adjuster is very minimal. You set it once when you set up the device and then it stays there. With the custom fitted devices they start out with a small advancement. Most of them have screws where the patient can bring the jaw out by small increments. You can get much greater advancement that way and you can avoid soreness. You can also tweak the position, there is a right setting that is different for everyone that can only be found over time.

Another problem with boil-n-bite devices is that they tend to get much better grip at the points where the teeth penetrate more deeply into the material. This means more load on the teeth in the front and less load carried by the back teeth. A custom fit device can distribute the load more evenly which means it has much less of a tendency to move your teeth.

Jaw problems are common. You are spending 1/3 or your time with your jaw out of position, so this needs to be monitored.

If the amount of jaw advancement is right a person could get some benefit out of it -- it does move the jaw forward. It's *far* cheaper than a dentist-fitted mouthpiece so being realistic here, there are people that have a choice between a PureSleep and nothing.

I would feel a lot better if people knew more about what they were getting into with these things. They can do some good, but it's not like you can just throw it into your mouth and get on with life, but I think that's what most people will do.

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Re: Pure Sleep Co. Drawing Attention

Post by ca_hosehead » Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:36 pm

LoQ wrote:I'm sort of interested in these devices. I feel like I need a chinstrap, but I can't stand them. So I wonder if one of these devices would keep my mouth shut like a chin strap would.
These devices are not very good at keeping your mouth shut. The boil-and-bite material doesn't provide a lot of "stick".

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Re: Pure Sleep Co. Drawing Attention

Post by LoQ » Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:15 pm

Thanks for your reply, ca_hosehead. That helps.


One thing kind of funny about the Pure Sleep ads I see on TV...they always show a diagram of the mouth and throat, with the uvula flopping in the throat, obstructing the airway. After the "patient" puts in the device, they show the uvula and soft palate being moved forward with the device. That always makes me laugh.

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Re: Pure Sleep Co. Drawing Attention

Post by Snoredog » Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:40 pm

LoQ wrote:Thanks for your reply, ca_hosehead. That helps.


One thing kind of funny about the Pure Sleep ads I see on TV...they always show a diagram of the mouth and throat, with the uvula flopping in the throat, obstructing the airway. After the "patient" puts in the device, they show the uvula and soft palate being moved forward with the device. That always makes me laugh.
The Uvula lands in the crease in the center of the tongue and makes the seal there.

For $60 bucks what do you have to lose? it is guaranteed, they will refund your money if it doesn't work. It will cost you more than $60 bucks to see a doctor just to explain what you want.

Seeing Rooster's article is not unusual, it is full of Sleep Doctors protecting their cash cow, they have been doing that for years and using the FDA to help them.
someday science will catch up to what I'm saying...

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Re: Pure Sleep Co. Drawing Attention

Post by LoQ » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:02 pm

Snoredog wrote:
LoQ wrote:Thanks for your reply, ca_hosehead. That helps.


One thing kind of funny about the Pure Sleep ads I see on TV...they always show a diagram of the mouth and throat, with the uvula flopping in the throat, obstructing the airway. After the "patient" puts in the device, they show the uvula and soft palate being moved forward with the device. That always makes me laugh.
The Uvula lands in the crease in the center of the tongue and makes the seal there.

For $60 bucks what do you have to lose? it is guaranteed, they will refund your money if it doesn't work. It will cost you more than $60 bucks to see a doctor just to explain what you want.

Seeing Rooster's article is not unusual, it is full of Sleep Doctors protecting their cash cow, they have been doing that for years and using the FDA to help them.
Are you responding to me? I have no disagreement with anything you said. I don't think I wrote anything in what you quoted that disagrees with your comments, and I don't see how it's related. We must be miscommunicating.

Regardless of the errors, if any, in the commercial, I said I would be interested in the device if it could help keep my mouth shut, and I implied that I was worried about the orthodontia issues. Neither of those was resolved favorably enough for me to want to try it, money-back guarantee or no. I am not particularly interested in losing any teeth, even if I could still get my money back by the time it happened. And not even if the company also agreed to replace or repair my teeth. Please don't be defensive. There will be people who find this device helpful, and I do not intend any discouragement to those people. More power to them if it works for them, and thanks for sharing your positive view of the device. I couldn't agree with you more that we need cheaper alternative solutions to these many problems. I in no way meant to discourage those kinds of efforts.

THEHARDTRUTH

Re: Pure Sleep Co. Drawing Attention

Post by THEHARDTRUTH » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:17 am

I think that a lot of the pro CPAP ,surgery and dental apnea appliance providers have tried to post on this blog because,lets face some facts here.We all know that we are dying of slow motion suicide with out treatment. And the bottom line from the heath care providers is MONEY ! They make the process for treatment to long ,to expensive and you have to jump through hoops to resove the problem.The doctors are in bed with the companies that make the equipment. What was the first thing that your doctor did after you first polysomnigraph.They signed you up for that worth less air compressor that fails 60% of the time and are making thousands of $ from the insurance companies. That is if you are fortunate to have insurance. The CPAP providers try to make you think that you are the problem. You must adapt to the CPAP, not the other way around.Lets look at the reasons that CPAP fails. The setting on the machine should be set to a standard that every patient can under stand, Like PSI not liters of H2O. My setting was 11 but I had to put 50 LBS of force on my straps just to keep tha mask on. Then there is the the breathing against the incomming pressure problem. It's like breating into a baloon all night long.You have to force the air out of your longs and it screws up your natural rythem. I am a jet aircraft mechanic in the air force and I know alot about the oxygen delivery sytem for the pilots.His oxygen regulator regulates how he breaths in and how he breaths out, It's perfictly natural. So why even try CPAP in the first place so you have to waiste 3 months proving that it dosn't work. They ought to quit making that damn thing and if they want to use positive pressure use a bipap.Then they have you again,the bipap costs twice as much as the CPAP.Then if that dosn't work then they want you to have surgery or a dental applience. I had a humidifed Fisher and Paykel and I have rhinitus. I cranked the setting on the CPAP to the max and with a room humidifier and my nose blocked completly off in 4 minutes.Then I went surching for a dentist to make me the device. The first dentist wanted $3,400 up front and the second one wanted $1,900 up front.So what did I do then. I made my own from 2 football mouth guards.It did work but you could not adjust the forward position of the jaw. Our problem is as simple as it is deadly.It's mechanical. And it's not rocket science. I have been working on solutions for 6 month's and now I have found one AND IT CALLED PURE SLEEP.iT WORKS AS GOOD AS A $3,400 DENTIST RIP OFF. Since the doctors know that we are dying to sleep why are they putting profits ahead of our health.enough is enough

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roster
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Man believes plankton cures cancer

Post by roster » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:50 am

How long have you been using it?
Last edited by roster on Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

spankey13

Re: Pure Sleep Co. Drawing Attention

Post by spankey13 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:32 pm

i got one shot it out almost killed my wife put cpap back on and love it.