Missing Data Again

[mindy]

I have been told the card has a limitation - of 3 sessions during a 24hr period. I don't know what defines a session. I do know the default period is from 12 noon to 12 noon. That really messes with my thinking so I changed mine to a normal 24 hr period = midnite - midnite. Now my days are the same as Encore's - YAHOO!!! We are now on the same page.

From what I understand - if more than 3 sessions are attempted - the 4th or later sessions simply will NOT be recorded. This should NOT be considered lost or missing data. If someone knows any differently - kindly step up.

I do NOT erase my card daily - so my success can NOT be any daily erasures. However, I have been powering the machine OFF, which I believe has been contributing to my success, lately.

Nelson & Mindy -
I don't know how either of you could say that the daily data erasures are working when you are doing other things that could be the reason. Not too scientific, eh!

My suggestion is to stop turning the power OFF but continue with the daily data erasures. You need to eliminate other variables. The card can be removed from the machine while still plugged in to AC power but with the blower OFF. Which I believe is how many of us have been removing the card.

So give that a try if you will please and let us know how you are making out.
Thanks,
GumbyCT

Hi Gumby,

I'm not doing the erasures ... but I have tried powering off the machine. In the early couple of months I slept longer hours more frequently and each time lost data. Now I rarely sleep more than 8 hours and rarely lose data. Although the two events are mathematically correlated, that isn't causal proof.

Purely from what I've observed, a "session" seems to represent a time period from start of use to a break longer than some amount of time. If I have trouble falling asleep and get up for awhile, if it's 5 minutes it seems to recognize it as part of the same session. However, if I'm up for an hour, it splits the data into separate sessions. What gap defines a session I'm not sure but it seems to be more than 5 minutes and less than or equal to an hour.

Gumby - I hope I'm wrong ... but I suspect that one of these days you'll have the missing data again despite what you're doing. Every time I thought I had "the answer", the bug would show up again.

Mindy

[GumbyCT]

Gumby - I hope I'm wrong ...

Me too gf -I'm rootin for ya
Now I'm wondering if there are differences in the versions of firmware or software in use.

To check your firmware version: Watch the LCD when turning on the power to your blower. When the machine initializes one of the things that will flash across the LCD are numbers that unless you know - you don't know, what they are.
You can also see these numbers flash by when going into setup.
I have both, the tank is 2.7 the M is 4.03

To check your software version: As in all software - click on "Help" then "About xx" - where xx is whatever software you are checking.

For the record mine is:
Machine Make/Model: Respironics Auto 500 M series
Firmware ver.: 4.03
Software ver.: Encore Pro 1.8.49
AC or DCPower Setup: Using AC Power Strip
Daily Power OFF: Yes

Any other differences worth noting: Frequent AC power dips served directly from CL&P (Connecticut Light & Power - the MOST expensive in the US.). Folks these frequent dips alone could be a source of problems. I know there are dips because I can hear & feel when my PC UPS groans while I am here typing away.

[stevoreno]

[quote="Slinky"]Personally, I would. When I bought a Respironics auto, despite only a $50 difference between the "tank" and the M Series I bought the "tank" BECAUSE of the dropped data "and" the "touchy" humidifier issue. I "may" be needing to switch to a bi-level and w/the bi-levels Respironics does seem to be ahead of the Resmeds. So ... *sigh* ... I'm looking at the "tank" and the M-Series Bi-Pap w/Bi-Flex ... and I REALLY hate to go the M Series route. But the "tank" Bi-PAP w/Bi-Flex is becoming more and more scarce. cpap.com has sold 8 of them in just the past week and I'm concerned by the time my sleep lab gets me thru the PSG and the bi-level titration (if it comes to that), that the "tank" Bi-PAP may be sold out.

[xyz]

gumbyct wrote:
> I'm wondering if there are differences in the versions of
> firmware or software in use.

Do you mean 1) differences in _functionality_ of machines that have different firmware or 2) if there are different versions of firmware that Auto M owners have?

I just got a new Auto M last week and it has v. 4.03.

Does anyone know if Respironics publishes a "history" of what is changed when the version changes?

[GumbyCT]

Normally my daily download is 13 pages - when the Missing Data shows up it changes to 12 pages (that happened yesterday).

Then on day 2 it changes to 11 pages - so that is one way to tell YOU are experiencing this Missing Data Problem.

I gotta run , so I haven't done my daily download yet today.

[GumbyCT]

Today my total pages changed from the usual 13 to 11. So the "Missing Data Again" has returned again. Normally, it loses 1 page each day for 2 days.

Couple of funny things - Yesterday, I had more than 3 sessions and thought about Mindy's theory.

Last time this happened was on Mar. 24 - coincidence?

Let me review my records here -
Recorded Compliance Data ONLY -
2008 Apr 24
2008 Apr 12 - didn't start recording until 03:54AM until 9:02
Who thinks I went to bed at 03:54AM ?? Really!!
2008 Mar 24 found during nap = More than 1 session
2008 Feb 15 & 16

Powered Machine OFF today to see if I can boot it out of this phase in it's life.

Wish me luck.

[6PtStar]

..

[Velbor]

I've written extensively about the data loss problem in the Respironics M-series units. I documented it thoroughly and presented it to Respironics by email after talking with their support folks several times. After I sent them my data output clearly showing the data gaps that appear in several ways, they suddenly stopped responding to my calls and emails. ..... By Respironics denying to complainers like me that the data problem exists, when it is obviously evident and widespread, causes me to seriously question the direction of the company.

One alternative approach is to report the problem to the FDA as a medical device product defect /quality problem:

https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/ ... online.htm

Point out that the loss of important health-related data by the machinery is a threat to patient safety. Let them know whether you have reported the situation to the company, and how the company has responded. If enough such reports start showing up in FDA's system, they may bring the situation to the company's attention. FDA is much harder for a manufacturer to ignore than are individual complaining users.

[GumbyCT]

I've written extensively about the data loss problem in the Respironics M-series units. I documented it thoroughly and presented it to Respironics by email after talking with their support folks several times. After I sent them my data output clearly showing the data gaps that appear in several ways, they suddenly stopped responding to my calls and emails. ..... By Respironics denying to complainers like me that the data problem exists, when it is obviously evident and widespread, causes me to seriously question the direction of the company.

Nodzy - Care to share your findings, conclusion, or anything else?

Would love to hear others thoughts or findings on the subject of Missing Data.

Nodzy never responded, I guess I'll never know. So I'll just document my findings.

Took a nap after the post this AM - page count went down to 10 total pages. hmmm there is something to that.

My DME is coming next Tue. maybe I should erase the card eh? Let me sleep on it, I'll give my answer in the morning.

[GumbyCT]

Ok dme issues aside- a couple more Q?'s

If erasing the card avoids the Missing Data -
1. Do you think it's in the firmware? What & why?

2. Makes me wonder if swapping 2 cards out every 7 days would also work? To avoid filling the card?

Thoughts?

[sparky2]

I got so mad about the missing data I looked at going the FDA route myself. I spent about 4 hours pouring over the website to see what Respironics claimed as their "Essential Performance." If it included the output of data that can be used to either diagnose or monitor treatment, then I expect that an incident report would lead to some kind of action. But, my expectations are that they did not claim these features as being essential.

If the data coming out were inaccurate, then even if its existence were not an essential part of the operation, I believe that the problem would need to be fixed right away. All it would take is one person (probably a Dr) to say that they prescribed the wrong settings based upon faulty data and that the patient's reaction was detrimental to force an action.

Since I could not easily find the Respironics claims, and have not yet asked our people at work where to find them, I thought about just complaining to the FDA that I believe that their exists a significant defect in the product's software. I do not think that this requires an "incident" to initiate further action. I suspect, however, that Respironics would just need to do a little song and dance about how the software was verified not to have any safety related issues and then nothing would happen.

I was able to verify that, as of a few months ago, there were no incidents (or published complaints) on the FDA site relating to this "memory loss" issue.


Sparky2

[sparky2]

I hate to rant, but in the first two months of owning an M series, I was loosing data all of the time. There was a 25 day stretch in which 6 days were missing!

I have never tried the erasing trick because I have always thought that I may need to go back to my sleep doc or DME for some reason and they would want to see compliance data or else "turn me in" to my insurance company. I have read here that some companies require 70% compliance or the benefits stop.

In any case, my POS Respironics M just lost all of the data anyway. It may not be totally their fault, because I took a trip and put it in my suitcase. When I got home a week later (the day before yesterday) I uploaded the data to Encore Pro and the compliance data that I had going back to Feb 5th is gone! The first night is now the last night before I left.

Perhaps my bag was x-rayed or something, but it is always something with this machine.


Sparky2

[GumbyCT]

They can read the compliance data right off the machine- I wouldn't worry about that.

Sleep well.

[sparky2]

Thanks, GumbyCT. I did not realize that some compliance data was stored directly in the machine when it is fitted with a card as well. I just checked the data and it is there. I will just have to remember to bring the machine in when the say to bring the card in - should that happen.


Sparky2

[DreamDiver]

An overly detailed explanation of the Respironics M-Series Pro firmware and Encore Pro software:

A. The smart card likely uses some sort of proprietary round robin database (RRD) format. Data can take up exactly a certain amount of space on the card. So, as new data is recorded, the oldest data is overwritten.

B. There are likely at least two RRD's on the card. One is for high-resolution data - the hourly graphs with events ticked on the graph. The other is low-resolution data - for daily totals, averages, etc., for the multi-day graphs. Each database is alotted a fixed slice of the available memory on the card.

C. Each database logs events. If no events happen, nothing is written to the database. So for the hi-res database, if you have a lot of apneas and hypopneas or other loggable events in a night, that night will take up more of the fixed alotment of space than a low-event night.

D. High resolution data events are grouped into sleep 'sessions' - not nights - not days. A session can be interrupted by any number of breaks in sleep. For instance, you get up at 4 am to go to the bathroom, turn off the machine, maybe read a quick clip from Reader's Digest, get a sip of water, turn the CPAP back on (and the mask) and go back to sleep. It probably took fifteen minutes, maybe as much as forty-five. If you took less than an hour, you're still in the same session. You can do this as many times as you want during the night, so long as no single gap is more than an hour. After an hour without the CPAP blower being on, the card marks the session as ended. The next time you put the mask on, you're in a new session.

E. The maximum on stored sessions, regardless of the number of events for my machine is seven. If you sleep about six hours each night and take a nap for an hour each day, then take a reading one morning, you'll see the hourly graph pages for a night, nap, night, nap, night, nap and night. If you mistakenly turn on the machine for a few seconds during the day between a nap and night and there's more than a hour each between your nap, the mistake and your night, you've just created a thirty second session.

F. On the other side of 'sessions' - if you sleep only at night for a single session each night, but each night session is chock full of events, then you may not get a full seven sessions in your card reading if you only check in once every seven days. Only a certain number of events may be recorded, and if your latest session needs space, it will overwrite the oldest session.

G. There is a second round robin database that records the low resolution data (stuff that's recorded only daily.) This database lasts for months before the oldest data is overwritten.

H. There is a glitch either in how the card is being read, or how the data is stored on the card. If it's about how the card is being read by Encore Pro, it's a software glitch. If it's how the data is being stored, it's a firmware glitch. I suspect it may be a firmware glitch. Several cpaptalk members have talked about this before. Every twenty eighth day, one or more days of high-res and low-res data get botched. If you continue storing data after the twenty eighth day, sometimes part of the data will be restored, but invariably, at least one day of hi-res and low-res data will be lost - usually the twenty eighth day - and sometimes other contiguous days.

I. You should make sure the CPAP is not blowing while you remove the card, but you don't have to unplug it. In fact, while it's plugged in, when you take the card out, it beeps once. When you put the card in after reading it, it beeps again to let you know the card is properly seated. If you put it in backwards, it will continually beep. So leaving the machine plugged in can help insure you inserted your card in right.

J. To be sure you get the all data, wait at least an hour after your last sleep to make sure the session has ended.

I've taken to clearing the card every third week, arbitrarily on Teusdays, and downloading the data at least twice weekly so I don't get the gaps in hi-res data, since I rarely take more than a couple naps a week.

Respironics seems to ignore our members about this issue. I wonder if CPAP.com wouldn't mind actually respresenting our concerns to Respironics and getting them to give us a firmware upgrade.