CPAPtalk.com

sc0ttt wrote:You might be right, I'm just saying the study doesn't say that. Could be that since the muscles are more relaxed it takes less pressure to open an airway; or it could be that without PAP the drunken muscles close off more frequently but with PAP drunken and sober muscles react the same.

the whole reason that you have apnea is that your muscles relax too much, letting things close up.

ergo, logic would dictate that *MORE* relaxed would be MORE closed up and would require MORE pressure to split it open.

palerider wrote:

sc0ttt wrote:You might be right, I'm just saying the study doesn't say that. Could be that since the muscles are more relaxed it takes less pressure to open an airway; or it could be that without PAP the drunken muscles close off more frequently but with PAP drunken and sober muscles react the same.

the whole reason that you have apnea is that your muscles relax too much, letting things close up.

ergo, logic would dictate that *MORE* relaxed would be MORE closed up and would require MORE pressure to split it open.

No; more relaxed would mean that the PAP machine would prevent more apneas, but it doesn't logically follow that it would require more pressure. The study didn't cover that and the ASK.com doctor said it "may" be true.

Anecdotally we have here some folks who say their auto pressure went up after drinking - that's a positive indicator. And others who said their AHI was the same or lower after drinking - a counter indicator.

Drank again last night. 2 beers.

AHI 1.37. Although my painful aerophagia stomach bloating came back...probably due to snacking (along with the alcohol) just before bed time.

From my experience too much alcohol requires frequent raising of pressures on my APAP, possibly result some arousal.
My zeo indicates that i don't get into REM sleep at all. I'm lucky if i get into deep sleep for any amount of time. Most of the time is in light sleep.
My AHI can be 0.

"No; more relaxed would mean that the PAP machine would prevent more apneas, but it doesn't logically follow that it would require more pressure."

Scott, I think you may not understand Cpap! The machine would NOT prevent more apneas if your throat is relaxed - not unless it was set to do so at a higher than usual setting... but your body would produce MORE of them because your throat would be more closed up from tissue relaxation. And therefore it stands to reason that (very, very likely) a higher pressure would be required to keep your airway open to the same amount you were titrated as needing when your settings were prescribed (or at least ones that you've since determined are correct). Either I'm missing something in your thinking, or you're missing a lot you should have known by now.

My machine is set in auto, 10-15 I think. I have had my lowest numbers ever after a few beers, My AHI after a few beers is always under 1 and has been below .5 when I've had more then a few. Without a drink AHI is about 2.5. I did note that the average pressures is higher after those beers. Now drugs are another thing. Been on Norco for the pass 3 weeks after having a total knee replacement My best AHI has been 6 normal is 8 to 12. Hoping to start cutting back soon but so far pain has been to much.

Just rummaging around and found this link.
The study was focused on mandibular advancement devices but did study the effects of alcohol during the study.

Mandibular Advancement Device and SDB

Uncle_Bob wrote:From my experience too much alcohol requires frequent raising of pressures on my APAP, possibly result some arousal.
My zeo indicates that i don't get into REM sleep at all. I'm lucky if i get into deep sleep for any amount of time. Most of the time is in light sleep.
My AHI can be 0.

That is a good observation!

Back when I only slept 4+ hours with the mask on due to aerophagia, my AHI looks deceptively low because I hardly go into REM sleep during the first half of the night. The centrals start pouring in during the second half of the night.

Julie wrote:"No; more relaxed would mean that the PAP machine would prevent more apneas, but it doesn't logically follow that it would require more pressure."

Scott, I think you may not understand Cpap! The machine would NOT prevent more apneas if your throat is relaxed - not unless it was set to do so at a higher than usual setting... but your body would produce MORE of them because your throat would be more closed up from tissue relaxation. And therefore it stands to reason that (very, very likely) a higher pressure would be required to keep your airway open to the same amount you were titrated as needing when your settings were prescribed (or at least ones that you've since determined are correct). Either I'm missing something in your thinking, or you're missing a lot you should have known by now.

good luck, I gave up trying to get through...

Julie wrote:"No; more relaxed would mean that the PAP machine would prevent more apneas, but it doesn't logically follow that it would require more pressure."

Scott, I think you may not understand Cpap! The machine would NOT prevent more apneas if your throat is relaxed - not unless it was set to do so at a higher than usual setting... but your body would produce MORE of them because your throat would be more closed up from tissue relaxation. And therefore it stands to reason that (very, very likely) a higher pressure would be required to keep your airway open to the same amount you were titrated as needing when your settings were prescribed (or at least ones that you've since determined are correct). Either I'm missing something in your thinking, or you're missing a lot you should have known by now.

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, just thinking through the subject and discussing the study. I'm really not hard-headed

As I said, you might very well be right that there is a correlation. My only claim is that the "higher pressure after alcohol" correlation was not made in the study. The study didn't mention pressure at all, it said there were two clear effects - the frequency and the duration of the apneas (on subjects that were not on PAP machines) were higher after drinking. And for that reason, I contend it's not valid to say that people WITH PAP machines should boost their pressure on nights when they use alcohol, or that they'll have longer or more frequent event while on their normal pressure.

I'm a mechanical engineer and I deal with pressurized air all the time. It seems to me that the amount of pressure required is a function of how much tissue has to be moved out of the way, and how heavy that tissue is. So if "more relaxed" means that more tissue is blocking the airway (which is what you're thinking), then yes - that is more pressure. But if "more relaxed" just means that the same amount of tissue relaxes more frequently with alcohol, then the pressure is the same with or without alcohol.

OK, NOW tell me if I'm still missing something.

sc0ttt wrote:..then the pressure is the same with or without alcohol.

Let me try to help you.

Influence of moderate alcohol consumption on
obstructive sleep apnoea with and without AutoSet“
nasal CPAP therapy

Eur Respir J, 1996, 9, 2371–2377
DOI: 10.1183/09031936.96.09112371


Moderate alcohol intake (in the form of vodka) has little effect on breathing or
saturation during sleep in subjects with mild-to-severe obstructive sleep apnoea, and
no effect on the pressure required for continuous positive airway pressure in order
to prevent apnoea, snoring, and flow limitation.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... Ww&cad=rja

People are not machines.

after testing this a couple of times with 2 beers or less each time close to bedtime: AHI no change.

however, my sleep is definitely not as good as it is without alcohol!

Sleeper Agent wrote:after testing this a couple of times with 2 beers or less each time close to bedtime: AHI no change.

however, my sleep is definitely not as good as it is without alcohol!

I see you have an autoset. Did your pressures go up?