would there be any intrest in a open source CPAP machine?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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Todzo
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Re: would there be any intrest in a open source CPAP machine?

Post by Todzo » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:56 am

space45 wrote:no FDA approval needed, it would be use at your own risk

the end user will be the one putting it together, he will be buying the parts or at best a kit. one could print their own case and source the electronic and hardware parts on the net or local suppliers

it is open source, no government involvement at all, one build and uses it themselves, it would not be a for resale type thing.

like a home flight sim does not need any government inspections or approvals no matter how big and fancy it is, but does if used in a commercial environment for certifying pilots.

I would like to make a compete and proper home based sleep lab setup for guys to use for tweaking and making sure their set up to the best possible setting, and for the DIY guys to have fun making and using a sleep lab so they do not have to be tied to a doc and what he says

one night sleep test in a strange bed with wires and stuff on you, not sure about any of you but I take 3 nights minimum to get used to a new bed and that is with out wires and connectors all over. then there is not all nights are the same so a home based sleep lab would allow for you to use your own bed, wireless connection and look at date over weeks and months to get things dialed in just right, not to mention all the great data one can take to the doc.

it would also be good for countries where sleep apnea may not be covered or where money is tight and one can not afford the expensive units


I have nothing against raspberry pi for a controller, what ever works best and will be easy to use.
glad to see some like minded guys here.
I was thinking start with a plain simple brick and work our way up to a top of the line sleep lab unit. would be cool to make one the sleep labs would envy
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Re: would there be any intrest in a open source CPAP machine?

Post by space45 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:56 am

your input would be welcome, would be nice to explore other options and ideas as I do think lots of the medical stuff takes a wrong turn dew to many different reasons not the least of witch is money.
what is best for the pocket book is very seldom good for the population, and even more so when it come to medical care. I do think docs should be paid good money, but premeditative based ideas and treatment are greatly over looked. they wait till your on death door and knocking loud before you get the attention you deserve. why not look for problems when they are small and easy to deal with, have heath care guys that look at thing preemptively and work with you to fix things before your in to deep. there are a ton of things that can be done, not the least of things is sleep apnea, all the decades of me having sleep problem, one could say I had sleep problems of one sort or another all my life, all the doc and all of my complaining something is wrong and what do I get ???? we have antidepressant pills ???? what on earth would I want with them. I am NOT depressed, it took me looking into it and suggesting things to find out I have sever low testosterone and high estrogen and extremely extreme sleep apnea. make me wonder what else is wrong that is being over looked and ignored, how much better would my life had been it I found this out when I was young, not saying my hormones were messed up all this time but I would have liked to know they at least looked into it, I now know I have had sleep problems all my life. not one doc or one health care person even suggested I should be checked for any of this. my doc even objected to any testing along the line of what I was asking, not till the results came did he GET ON BOARD and realize I was not needing his pills and that I was not just complaining to much about GETTING OLD. he was shocked, sad state of affairs when the patent need to school the doc.

anyway, all ideas and opinions welcome
Todzo wrote:I think that the basic design of CPAP machines took some wrong turns starting about 2000 or so. The result is machines whose usability numbers are pitiful.

I think I know what would work best for me at this point. I will never get them to make it so I have to build it. Only way.

I guess I am not alone.

Open Source is the only way we can do very good super computing, computer forensics and security, and many other things. You need a lot of freedom to do many things. Creativity must not be stifled.

That cannot happen where a few direct the black operations in the dark.

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Re: would there be any intrest in a open source CPAP machine?

Post by space45 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:45 am

we have a theologian among us

we live in a new and exiting time, the power is shifting to the individual and they are being empowered. things like computer so we can find like minded people and talk to other around the world, share and exchange ideas, learn new things, explore and expand our world and our very being. now that is some cool stuff. computer are also power full tools the empower the individual, I am very dyslexic and with out spell check I would be writing in a code even I could not read a day or 2 later, even with spell check I find tons of wrong words and mistakes. thing is like it does with most anyone else that learns to use the computer it does greatly empower me to be able to do much more then I could have ever done with out it.

when you say discount the value of work and development to zero, what exactly are you saying? does a doc that pays his own way to a 3rd world country and helps other getting ZERO value? how much work do we do to have fun? things get moved or build and planned with hours of work and sometime boat loads of money and we call it having fun or a hobby or what ever. we can get paid in many different ways for our investment of time and money, not every thing come back in like kind, time and money invested does not have to equal more money, and it sure can not equal more time, at least not directly. one can make something that will save time to do things in the future, but no one comes to you with a wallet full of time and give it to you. helping others and the feeling you have done something good, something lasting, you have left mother earth a better place for your being a part of her. what is that worth, what would you pay to know you have done some good, left this place a better place, helped other live a better life, made a difference, made your mark, and maybe you find it fun to boot. now that is what life is all about I would think. I have nothing against money or the making of money, it is how and why it is made that counts, someone works hard and smart and invest his time and money wisely and does very good while having fun and enjoying life, nothing bad about that. he could make trillions of dollars and I would think that great. but the guy that gains the system and lies and cheats his way to being rich, I am not to fond of that guy, like most of our leaders, most all lie and cheat and gain the system to get on top. dog eat dog, the strong crush the weak, and we stand by and vote them back in and wonder why we are getting screwed.

anyway, there can be great value and satisfaction in doing open source projects, and some times it even pays back in cash, lots donate to the projects and some projects end up making boatloads of money for every one that wants to be evolved. with the founders and other that want to and can producing products like kits and parts needed for other to make build or what ever the open source project was. most all of them offering good products and service and making a good living. that is what capitalism is all about, true and proper capitalism.

look at 3D printers, they started open source now there is a great number of people making a living from it. some open source projects do pay back in cash, but I would bet the founders of 3D printing open source were also paid in a much more valuable return, how they feel about them selves and how much better they made thing for others.

theology lesson over, class dismissed....lol



SleepWrangler wrote:
Todzo wrote: I guess I am not alone.

Open Source is the only way we can do very good super computing, computer forensics and security, and many other things. You need a lot of freedom to do many things. Creativity must not be stifled.
I think you are still alone unfortunately. To spearhead an open source hardware project requires a level of dedication only a crusader can muster. In the beginning when ideas are still germinating you're unconsciously incompetent. Everything is fun and new. The crusader does not understand or know how to do something and does not necessarily recognize the deficit (borrowing from "Four stages of competence").

It's only when the concepts are mastered and the hard work is complete and you've gained unconscious competence you realize the true cost of your creation. For open source hardware you have to discount the value of development to zero, discount the hours of implementation and testing to zero, discount the specialized tools to zero, and often production in quantities of one is more expensive than ready made alternatives (shipping costs for parts alone are usually the gotcha).

If your creation is an implementation of new ideas then the process and end result can be rewarding because the costs don't matter. If the goal is to re-produce existing readily available hardware at a lower cost then good luck. It won't work. Even kickstarter projects implemented by dedicated crusaders require volume to be worthwhile.

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Re: would there be any intrest in a open source CPAP machine?

Post by JDS74 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:58 am

There is some confusion here between the concept of open source and the concept of public domain.
You can publish a complete description of a CPAP machine and how to build one but that doesn't mean that you can actually build one without financial risk.

The problem stems from patent law.
It is likely that there are hundreds of patents relating to CPAP technology and your device would have to avoid all of them (just the current ones, not the expired ones). If you miss even one, the patent owner can come at you for significant damages. Worse than that, they can come at you for infringement and make you life hell unless you can prove you didn't infringe.

I would guess that an effort to create an "open source" CPAP device would be looked at as an economic threat by the big companies and they would react negatively. The underlying problem would be that each individual building one would be subject to the litigation. Just beginning the defense would exceed the cost of the most expensive CPAP available.

There is considerable uproar over the open source/designs being published about making a home printed firearm and the issue of patents isn't involved there.

Just a thought.

OTOH, it would be really helpful to have published the file formats for all the data being recorded by the variety of CPAP machines out there. There was some work done on that with regard to PR System One machines related to the SleepyHead software project but I haven't heard about current ASV models or other manufacturers like ResMed, etc.

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space45
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Re: would there be any intrest in a open source CPAP machine?

Post by space45 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:00 am

that is a great idea and one I have been wanting to see done for a very long time. we could learn so very much about our selves if we had more data over time.

every one should get a complete MRI at least every 5 years with a copy going to a master data base so others in the future can see how medical problem get hold and grow over time and in different ways. all blood work and other things should be logged, all doctors records and notes should also be available to researchers and for future research to be gone over looking for clue to rid mankind of the problems that plague us. DNA samples over time should be analyzed and decoded as well to study how different medical problem effect it over time. we could have learned so much if we started this decades ago. so much opportunity to learn has been lot

Todzo wrote:
space45 wrote:... as well as hart rate and o2 levels with a open source o2 sensor and other cool options like built in EEG and bio feed back all wireless as well. would like to have a home sleep lab type unit if possible

open to feed back on this idea
One thing I would love to see is an open source project where polysomnogram like data is taken on individuals over the long term.

No one seems to know how we really sleep night after week after month after season after year.

It would be nice to know!!!

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Re: would there be any intrest in a open source CPAP machine?

Post by space45 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:41 am

as far as I know, patents do not apply to non commercial activity, one can make anything they want for them selves as long as they do not sell it. 3D printers took off because the patent ran out, that did not or would not stop someone from making there own at home for there own use, but it did help greatly with them exploding onto the market place as now guys can take the open source info and manufacture and sell them openly. same with what we are doing, we can make then for our selves, we can post info about them, we can not manufacture and sell them, but we can sell kits, that does get to be somewhat grey, but in most places inside the lines. one could have a site that sold every thing needed to make something patented and as long as there is not a complete kit being offered to make the patented thing when your well with in the lines. a complete kit with every thing you need to make a patented product can get somewhat grey if the company really goes after you. anyone the offers a complete and functional CPAP would have to make sure what they were offering did not violate any patents, would be cool to find out if a simple brick could be built and sold. that could make a great base for improvements to be added to make a much better machine. one could add some sensors and firmware and have a whole new machine. one could make a blower in a funny case that was for something weird and sell it, it may look like a CPAP and blow like one but would not be one, just a controller controlled fan for adjusting the amount it blows on flowers or on a actors hair for making movies. there you go, a good base for a CPAP that is not a CPAP. if is for something else and does something else, the fact others take it and MAKE it into CPAP or USE it as a CPAP is beyond your control. after all, at its base it is just a computer controlled fan that blows. vary simple device that could have a thousand uses, we just need to find a good one to make a good starting base so it will be easy to build from it. how about a research tool for finding terminal velocity of small objects using a tightly controlled fan/blower and a vertical tube. maybe someone makes that at a good price and we can repurpose it for what we want.

as for file format data, that would be of great help if I could get my hands on it. can you track it down and post a link or send me the file or contact info as to who to get in touch with? thanks the would be of great help
JDS74 wrote:There is some confusion here between the concept of open source and the concept of public domain.
You can publish a complete description of a CPAP machine and how to build one but that doesn't mean that you can actually build one without financial risk.

The problem stems from patent law.
It is likely that there are hundreds of patents relating to CPAP technology and your device would have to avoid all of them (just the current ones, not the expired ones). If you miss even one, the patent owner can come at you for significant damages. Worse than that, they can come at you for infringement and make you life hell unless you can prove you didn't infringe.

I would guess that an effort to create an "open source" CPAP device would be looked at as an economic threat by the big companies and they would react negatively. The underlying problem would be that each individual building one would be subject to the litigation. Just beginning the defense would exceed the cost of the most expensive CPAP available.

There is considerable uproar over the open source/designs being published about making a home printed firearm and the issue of patents isn't involved there.

Just a thought.

OTOH, it would be really helpful to have published the file formats for all the data being recorded by the variety of CPAP machines out there. There was some work done on that with regard to PR System One machines related to the SleepyHead software project but I haven't heard about current ASV models or other manufacturers like ResMed, etc.

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Re: would there be any intrest in a open source CPAP machine?

Post by djhall » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:15 pm

My first thought was that this would be very cool in theory but the easy access to cheap Craisglist machines would likely limit the appeal of the home built cpap project. That got me thinking that the real appeal isn't the home built hardware as much as it is the ability to modify the software that controls how the machine behaves (though adding wifi hardware would be nice). That got me thinking that all the machine variants in any particular series might all use the same hardware platform for cost efficiency and just have different software packages to make them behave as a brick, a CPAP, an APAP, a BiPAP, or a VPAP.

All of which brought me to this thought... has anyone looked into the practicality of developing custom firmware for any of the existing CPAP hardware platforms? Custom firmwares are developed for everything from cellphones, to Xboxes, to wifi routers, and even the Toshiba FlashAir WiFi enabled SD cards (which may be a new route to getting WiFi uploading on our PRS1 and S9 machines - build a custom firmware for the Toshiba Air card that these machines like). It would be a much easier project to develop and easier for end users to build if we could just buy a cheap basic model PRS1 CPAP from Craigslist and flash it with a custom firmware package that adds new features, settings, and abilities.

If we can't just flash the firmware, perhaps we should consider starting from an existing blower platform anyway and replace the entire logic board. Take a cheap existing CPAP model, open the case, disconnect the wiring harnesses leading from the logic board to the control panel, blower, sensors, and power supply, plug them into a custom designed interface board or harness, and connect that to an off the shelf single-board-computer like the Raspberry Pi. Although not as simple as a straight firmware flash, that still sounds like a far easier project to build than one where we have to build everything, including the case, the airflow sensors, the blower, the humidifier, the user display, etc. from scratch.

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Re: would there be any intrest in a open source CPAP machine?

Post by space45 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:41 pm

if we had access to all the source code of all the models and makes of units when a new flash may be doable, providing there is mem space left for new and wonderful code, but to decode and redo would be a big chore in deed and much harder and less useable when a new rewrite from scratch. now if you have access to a old case that may help, but time on the motor would be a factor and how much time it has left. when printing a new one, one can design it for a off the shelf high end motor, also the electronics would be made extra rouged to handle a larger and varied selection of motors. retrofitting a old unit may not be the best over all option, but it could be a good base for someone to add our control system to. may need to print or hack something for the new display to fit and work, and for new buttons if the old ones can not be repurposed. BTW starting the project from a existing PAP may not be all that bad a idea.

djhall wrote:My first thought was that this would be very cool in theory but the easy access to cheap Craisglist machines would likely limit the appeal of the home built cpap project. That got me thinking that the real appeal isn't the home built hardware as much as it is the ability to modify the software that controls how the machine behaves (though adding wifi hardware would be nice). That got me thinking that all the machine variants in any particular series might all use the same hardware platform for cost efficiency and just have different software packages to make them behave as a brick, a CPAP, an APAP, a BiPAP, or a VPAP.

All of which brought me to this thought... has anyone looked into the practicality of developing custom firmware for any of the existing CPAP hardware platforms? Custom firmwares are developed for everything from cellphones, to Xboxes, to wifi routers, and even the Toshiba FlashAir WiFi enabled SD cards (which may be a new route to getting WiFi uploading on our PRS1 and S9 machines - build a custom firmware for the Toshiba Air card that these machines like). It would be a much easier project to develop and easier for end users to build if we could just buy a cheap basic model PRS1 CPAP from Craigslist and flash it with a custom firmware package that adds new features, settings, and abilities.

If we can't just flash the firmware, perhaps we should consider starting from an existing blower platform anyway and replace the entire logic board. Take a cheap existing CPAP model, open the case, disconnect the wiring harnesses leading from the logic board to the control panel, blower, sensors, and power supply, plug them into a custom designed interface board or harness, and connect that to an off the shelf single-board-computer like the Raspberry Pi. Although not as simple as a straight firmware flash, that still sounds like a far easier project to build than one where we have to build everything, including the case, the airflow sensors, the blower, the humidifier, the user display, etc. from scratch.

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Re: would there be any intrest in a open source CPAP machine?

Post by danielqk » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:51 pm

Today most of tablet or cpap machine microcontroller is ARM cortex, Arduino AVR based microcontroller is just a toy for education.

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Re: would there be any intrest in a open source CPAP machine?

Post by Sir NoddinOff » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:04 pm

This truly sounds like a 'no guts, no glory' type of Don Quixote venture. I love that stuff - however - I wouldn't focus on any financial or ego-driven rewards. IMO, it would be a long hard slog thru development, testing and lots of inevitable criticism, ending up in a glorious death or a tepid reception. Not to mention the possibility of being squashed like a bug by the army of corporate CPAP lawyers. Furthermore, how many people these days have the time or motivation to build electronic kits? And this is coming from a guy who grew up building Radio Shack and Ramsey kits. What the hell... go for it if you've got the time, energy and know-how

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Re: would there be any intrest in a open source CPAP machine?

Post by djhall » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:31 pm

space45 wrote:time on the motor would be a factor and how much time it has left. when printing a new one, one can design it for a off the shelf high end motor, also the electronics would be made extra rouged to handle a larger and varied selection of motors. retrofitting a old unit may not be the best over all option, but it could be a good base for someone to add our control system to.
I agree that starting from scratch ultimately gives you a lot more potential and options. I just suspect getting to the point where an actual working alpha unit exists might be easier if starting from a pre-existing platform, a working custom controller mod project could be expanded to also run fully custom hardware platforms as a version 2.0 project, and less technical people would probably be more willing to take on the challenge of modding an old backup unit than attempting building one completely from scratch.

Which doesn't mean that it is necessarily the best way to go... its just an option to consider.

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Re: would there be any intrest in a open source CPAP machine?

Post by space45 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:05 pm

it could be a way for some one to take a non functional machine as long as the basic parts worked most important the motor and add the DYI control system, that would work. but with 3D printing and being able to order 3D prints by just sending in a 3D model would make starting from scratch not so big a deal. back in the day most defiantly starting from a old carcass and repurposing it would be the way to go, hack and cut and glue in new motor mounts and work around that you had. been there done that with other things back in the day. but it would still be a way to go if you had one or found one cheap. any plain jane brick could be a good starting point and up grade as needed or desired.
djhall wrote:
space45 wrote:time on the motor would be a factor and how much time it has left. when printing a new one, one can design it for a off the shelf high end motor, also the electronics would be made extra rouged to handle a larger and varied selection of motors. retrofitting a old unit may not be the best over all option, but it could be a good base for someone to add our control system to.
I agree that starting from scratch ultimately gives you a lot more potential and options. I just suspect getting to the point where an actual working alpha unit exists might be easier if starting from a pre-existing platform, a working custom controller mod project could be expanded to also run fully custom hardware platforms as a version 2.0 project, and less technical people would probably be more willing to take on the challenge of modding an old backup unit than attempting building one completely from scratch.

Which doesn't mean that it is necessarily the best way to go... its just an option to consider.

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Re: would there be any intrest in a open source CPAP machine?

Post by space45 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:29 pm

there is some truth to that but it does not mean the Arduino or several of them or combinations of then and others would not fill the bill. the machine could be a tad bigger for added control systems. the thinking behind using the toys as you put it is we should get more guys involved in making this happen and more improvements faster as guys can play with there toys and find cool new ways to do things, more hands make for light work, so they say.
danielqk wrote:Today most of tablet or cpap machine microcontroller is ARM cortex, Arduino AVR based microcontroller is just a toy for education.

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Re: would there be any intrest in a open source CPAP machine?

Post by JDS74 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:58 pm

space45 wrote:as far as I know, patents do not apply to non commercial activity, one can make anything they want for them selves as long as they do not sell it.
I know of no exemption from patent law for infringing for personsal, non-commericial use.
The controlling decision stems from a 1942 case in which a farmer in Ohio grew wheat on his own land in excess of the production controls then implemented by the Federal government. The wheat was wholly consumed on the farm, was not fed to any animals that were sold in commerce and yet he was convicted and the Supreme Court upheld based on the Commerce Clause.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn

Building a device for personal use that had current patent protections would be the legal equivalent of taking apart a current device and making an exact copy for use as a personal backup and not for sale. That would be completely different from the poster looking for parts S8 machines so he could assemble a single working one. All of the parts used in that way would have been sold under licence from the original patent holders.

There was a second suggestion of making a replacement firmware download for and existing device.
That can pass legal scrutiny but the hurdles to make it so are quite high.
When Compaq computers came out and had firmware completely compatible with the existing IBM firmware for the original IBM PC, they survived a legal challenge by proving that they had developed their own firmware without any reference to what IBM had done with the exception of noting what functions were being used as called by the IBM DOS operating system and then creating that same functionality in a completely separate and sterile environment.

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Re: would there be any intrest in a open source CPAP machine?

Post by Todzo » Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:18 pm

JDS74 wrote:
space45 wrote:as far as I know, patents do not apply to non commercial activity, one can make anything they want for them selves as long as they do not sell it.
I know of no exemption from patent law for infringing for personsal, non-commericial use.
The controlling decision stems from a 1942 case in which a farmer in Ohio grew wheat on his own land in excess of the production controls then implemented by the Federal government. The wheat was wholly consumed on the farm, was not fed to any animals that were sold in commerce and yet he was convicted and the Supreme Court upheld based on the Commerce Clause.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn

Building a device for personal use that had current patent protections would be the legal equivalent of taking apart a current device and making an exact copy for use as a personal backup and not for sale. That would be completely different from the poster looking for parts S8 machines so he could assemble a single working one. All of the parts used in that way would have been sold under licence from the original patent holders.

There was a second suggestion of making a replacement firmware download for and existing device.
That can pass legal scrutiny but the hurdles to make it so are quite high.
When Compaq computers came out and had firmware completely compatible with the existing IBM firmware for the original IBM PC, they survived a legal challenge by proving that they had developed their own firmware without any reference to what IBM had done with the exception of noting what functions were being used as called by the IBM DOS operating system and then creating that same functionality in a completely separate and sterile environment.
Anyone who has followed Monsanto knows that there are severe violations of basic human rights stemming from our own government. I think we are indeed moving toward a world wide moritorium on patents someday. Patentents were put in place to encourage individual creativity - however - we made corporations "indivicuals". We made a mistake we need to correct!!!
May any shills trolls sockpuppets or astroturfers at cpaptalk.com be like chaff before the wind!