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Hmmm...I've got a few friends with wheat problems, but they're always the reverse of what I experienced - i.e. people feel less lethargic, clearer headed, etc... when they stop eating wheat (if they have a problem with it). Also, they have physical issues when they eat wheat, whereas I have none. But I guess there could be different types of reactions? Interesting...will have to check into it more. Thanks.

jnk wrote:I also found this little stunt, scientifically valid or not (because of the ridiculous extremes they employed in short duration), to be thought-provoking anyway as well:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... -life.html

Thanks for posting this jnk, it was fun and fascinating to read. They did go to extremes on both sides but the take away message from their little experiment couldn't be more common-sense: Balance is the foundation of a healthy approach to eating, and balance involves eating a variety of healthy and whole foods.

robysue wrote:

Janknitz wrote:Low carb AND low fat is a recipe for disaster. It does not work well for most and it's nutritionally deficient. There are a lot of nutrients in natural fats (not talking processed oils here), and our bodies NEED fats to benefit from certain vitamins (A, D, E, and K). When you drop carbs, fat helps you not feel hungry.

As long as you continue to eat carbs you will crave them. It takes getting through the withdrawals to get carbs out of your system, many people give up because it IS hard. But if it works for you, then go for it. Giving up grains has huge benefits, but not everyone is willing to do it.

For the most part, I've focused much more on limiting/eliminating the grain-based carbs rather than worrying about limiting fat---mainly because high triglycerides are a known health problem in my family and high triglycerides seem to have much stronger relationship to type II diabetes than (slightly) high cholesterol has to heart disease. And the family has a stronger history of type II diabetes than heart disease.

I really did try to eliminate grain-based carbs and sugar at one point. During this time, I did not watch fat content at all, but even with fat in my diet, I managed to stick to the low carb diet for only about 2 or 3 weeks. I was really grouchy the entire time. Giving up foods high in added sugar was not the real problem. Sure, I missed my daily candy bar, but that wasn't really that hard to give up because I didn't really crave it. What I craved was bread, cereal, and rice. And I craved them all the time. Just how long do you have to be carb free before the carbs are "out of your system" and the cravings go away?

Without bread and the other carbs, eating during those two weeks literally became a chore for me rather than the small, daily pleasure that I believe eating should be. All in all, I was not a very pleasant person to live with, and hubby got pretty tired of my fussing and started encouraging me to "cheat" so that eating was something I'd enjoy again. Hubby (who is not much of a bread eater) was also surprised at just how many other things were off limits on a no carb diet; eliminating rice was particularly hard on him since it knocked out a whole bunch of our standard supper menus, including his favorite Red Beans and Rice.

Breakfast was (and is) the most difficult meal for me to stick to a low/no carb diet: Finding easy no-cook low/no carb alternatives to my beloved cold cereal has been particularly difficult. Yes, I know the claim is "eggs are easy to cook in just a few minutes", but I cannot even stand the smell of eggs before lunch time, much less eat them for breakfast. (And eggs without toast is not that appealing to me even at lunch.) And cooking something that required even more time than eggs just won't work since the way I'm handling getting enough sleep with the insomnia is to sleep from 1:30 or 2:00am to 8:30am.

So for a long time, full-fat cheese, apples (or other fruit) and real, full-fat unsweetened yogurt from a small local dairy became my default breakfast, which provided enough calories and protein (on paper). But I found myself choking this breakfast down rather than enjoying it, even though the yogurt remains a favorite snack. And I also found that after eating a very low carb breakfast, I was significantly more hungry earlier in the afternoon (and craving bread and crackers) than I had been after eating cereal for breakfast. So cheating at breakfast time has become the rule rather than the exception. *sigh*

I have managed to cut back on carbs, but I know I'm still eating more of them than I should. In principal, I'd like to get to where I'm eating a low or no carb diet since I know that in the long run I'd probably be healthier. But I also want to be able to enjoy my meals. And right now that means trying to sensibly limit, but not severely restrict or outright eliminate the carbs from my diet.

I eat oatmeal or my own homemade oatmeal muffins for breakfast each and every day. I also eat a cup of popcorn a day. Both seem to satisfy me. I don't get satisfied by eating only the egg white and will now eat the entire egg. The key is everything in moderation. Balance. I need high amounts of protein, I need nuts for the fat, I need veggies, both non-starchy and starchy, but I balance everything out. If I eat too many veggies, I feel miserable. The same with fruit. If I eat too much fruit, I feel miserable. So, I eat everything in moderation and balance it all out.

I eat salmon instead of tuna fish, but I also eat chicken, lean pork, and lean beef. I eat nuts and mozzarella cheese, feta cheese, Greek yogurt. Heck, I even put a little oatmeal into my Greek yogurt. I suspect it is the mental emotional craving for those carbs (breads) that is making you so miserable. When making my breakfast oatmeal muffins, I toss in a fruit of my choice and some dark chocolate chips. I use unsweetened applesauce and stevia (you can use honey instead) in my muffins. I made banana bread yesterday, pouring the batter into muffin tins instead for portion control. Again, honey and unsweetened applesauce were used in my recipe. The family loved it so much more than my non-healthy 1/2 lb. of butter banana bread, and it was so moist because of the applesauce and the honey. My family felt comfortable with buttering the banana bread muffins because they knew I hadn't added any butter to the recipe when mixing it up. Calorically, it worked out at 132 calories per portion, so, yeah, putting butter on it was okay.

It's not about not eating carbs - it's about making smart choices when eating those carbs. Don't deprive yourself from eating your carbs, just be smart about it and don't overdo it. And, yes, it has worked for me because I lost 135 pounds in a year due to diet and lots of exercise. I'm 62, so I am living proof that someone in her 60s can lose weight and keep it off.

I'd advise you to work with a dietician who will help you come up with meal plans and an eating style that works for you. What I do won't work for the rest of you because your bodies are different, you like to eat different foods than I do, and you have to feel as though you are not depriving yourself. It will work - just keep looking for a plan that works for you. Find that dietician, and it will be money well spent.

Roby Sue, if what you're doing right now diet-wise is working for you, then who am I to say otherwise?

Your doctor is suggesting some changes, but yes, it IS hard. The problems that are causing some concern are hard too, so you're going to have to choose your hard.

You may want to do more research about whether or not the whole wheat is really much, if any, improvement for your health. There is a growing body of evidence that says otherwise.

You might do really well with something called "The Perfect Health Diet" by Paul and Sou Ching Jaminet. It is NOT a low carb diet, but the carbs are in the form of foods they call "safe starches"--grain free, but not low carb. Safe starches include white rice (not brown rice!), tapioca, green banana, plantain, taro, starchy vegetables. Many people do GREAT on this diet with significant improvement of their health.

As for breakfast, if you want to eliminate the grains, nobody says you have to eat eggs. The possibilities are endless:
1. Who says you have to eat breakfast at all? If you are eating a nutrient dense diet the rest of the day, you may find you don't need breakfast. I can go some days without eating breakfast, but not every day. I let my appetite dictate, if I'm just not hungry, I have coffee with some fat added (see #2) and call it good. I can go the whole morning without a problem--something that NEVER would have happened when I still ate grains and sugars and had to eat every 2 hours or so to keep my blood sugar from bottoming out.
2. A lot of people do something called "intermittent fasting", but often they drink "Bullet Proof Coffee" with MCT's (medium chain triglycerides--fat) in it. There's a long and involved explanation of why this is beneficial--if curious, look it up.
3. Some people eat "non-breakfast foods" like leftover dinner from the night before, or a rich hearty soup for their morning meal. I'm guessing that won't sit well with you, though.
4. How about smoothies?
5. Just about any Paleo recipe website will have tons of non-grain breakfast goodies. I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to eat nut flours and flax creations daily--I actually got myself in some hormonal troubles by eating a flax based muffin every morning when I first started to low carb. The recipes vary in quality--if you keep in mind the concept of REAL FOOD it will help you choose wisely.
6. If a bowl of hot cereal is absolutely the way you want to start your day, take a look at this recipe: againstallgrain.com/2013/01/04/banana-nut-porridge/ It's not terribly low carb because of the banana, but it's grain free and delicious. If you aren't eliminating dairy, it's OK to use full fat dairy instead of coconut milk. I make 1/4 of the recipe (one serving) and don't bother soaking the nuts overnight because I use pre-soaked "crispy nuts" Weston A. Price style (soaking releases the phytates in the nuts).

Anyway, I don't mean to sway you if you are comfortable with the way you are eating now, but this might be helpful for others who wonder how it might be possible to give up their morning carbs.

One more thing (sorry, this is obviously a big topic for me!), if you think calories matter, take a listen to this: http://balancedbites.com/2014/02/podcas ... -loss.html Starting at around 17 minutes in.

Janknitz wrote:One more thing (sorry, this is obviously a big topic for me!), if you think calories matter, take a listen to this: http://balancedbites.com/2014/02/podcas ... -loss.html Starting at around 17 minutes in.

Of course a lot of the things this lady is saying in her recording is excellent advice. But when she talks about calories and hormonal response she is not correct. Calories do matter. The amount of calories is the primary driver of hormonal response in the typical diet.

I think she relies on some examples where a person ate only protein at a meal versus one who ate high-glycemic load carbs. But how many eat only protein at a meal and how many want to eat like that?

As far as hormonal response, here is a small study pointing to where the lady is wrong - http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/resear ... eview.html

BTW, I am a slim cyclist, runner and gym rat. If I don't eat a goodly amount of carbs everyday, my physical performance level declines sharply.

Janknitz wrote:Roby Sue, if what you're doing right now diet-wise is working for you, then who am I to say otherwise?

Your doctor is suggesting some changes, but yes, it IS hard. The problems that are causing some concern are hard too, so you're going to have to choose your hard.

The doc understands some of this. At the first follow-up following being put on the diet, he was surprised at how much I had (then) changed my diet and concerned at how miserable I was when trying to stick to the diet. He told me not to worry quite so much about the carbs and told me that moderation was a key ingredient.

You may want to do more research about whether or not the whole wheat is really much, if any, improvement for your health. There is a growing body of evidence that says otherwise.

You might do really well with something called "The Perfect Health Diet" by Paul and Sou Ching Jaminet. It is NOT a low carb diet, but the carbs are in the form of foods they call "safe starches"--grain free, but not low carb. Safe starches include white rice (not brown rice!), tapioca, green banana, plantain, taro, starchy vegetables. Many people do GREAT on this diet with significant improvement of their health.

Pardon my saying this, but: Tapicoa, green banana, plantain, and taro are NOT at all appealing to me. They taste pretty wretched. And one thing I've learned while cutting back on the carbs that I enjoy eating is that replacing food you like the taste of with food that does not even smell appealing and tastes even worse is a recipe for turning what ought to be a pleasurable experience into a mind-numbing chore. CPAP has done that to "going to bed" for me, and at this point I need eating to remain a pleasure rather than a chore.

As for breakfast, if you want to eliminate the grains, nobody says you have to eat eggs. The possibilities are endless:
1. Who says you have to eat breakfast at all? If you are eating a nutrient dense diet the rest of the day, you may find you don't need breakfast. I can go some days without eating breakfast, but not every day. I let my appetite dictate, if I'm just not hungry, I have coffee with some fat added (see #2) and call it good.

I am someone who has to have breakfast. First of all, I wake up hungry. (Probably because I don't do much snacking after supper and supper is usually six or more hours before bedtime.) If I don't start eating something solid within about 15 minutes of getting up out of bed, I'm setting myself up for a major, daylong migraine that nothing (including eating) will really fix. Calories from liquid such as full fat milk or coffee with cream don't change the fact that my body needs something solid relatively quickly after I first get up.

During the two weeks I was carb free, the need to start eating something solid within 15 minutes of getting up did NOT change. I can tell when I'm running out of time on the migraine end of things. And it's not pleasant to know that you're flirting with a potentially day-long headache.

I can go the whole morning without a problem--something that NEVER would have happened when I still ate grains and sugars and had to eat every 2 hours or so to keep my blood sugar from bottoming out.
2. A lot of people do something called "intermittent fasting", but often they drink "Bullet Proof Coffee" with MCT's (medium chain triglycerides--fat) in it. There's a long and involved explanation of why this is beneficial--if curious, look it up.

I don't need another migraine trigger. And I've never been one who's had to eat every 2 hours. With breakfast (even a very high carb breakfast), I have never had any problem going 4 hours (or more) before eating lunch. Eating a high carb breakfast in the past often allowed me to skip lunch altogether if I was just plain to busy to find the time to eat. And skipping lunch has never seemed to cause the same degree of migraine problems that skipping breakfast does
.

3. Some people eat "non-breakfast foods" like leftover dinner from the night before, or a rich hearty soup for their morning meal. I'm guessing that won't sit well with you, though.

Hubby loves this, but I don't. Again the problem is sensory: the odor of such food too early in the morning is overwhelming and I physically have to choke it down (even though I'm hungry) and I get no pleasure out of eating leftovers for breakfast.

4. How about smoothies?

I'd just assume have the fruit in identifiable form. I'd also just assume eat the yogurt in identifiable form. Plus smoothies are liquid, and my head needs something that is solid and within 15 minutes of eating.

5. Just about any Paleo recipe website will have tons of non-grain breakfast goodies. I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to eat nut flours and flax creations daily--I actually got myself in some hormonal troubles by eating a flax based muffin every morning when I first started to low carb. The recipes vary in quality--if you keep in mind the concept of REAL FOOD it will help you choose wisely.

Here is where I think you and I need to simply agree to disagree. I know you think wheat and sugar in particular and carbs in general are not REAL FOOD. I think that anything in moderation can be a useful part of a well balanced diet. I've given up on "low/no carbs" because it's too hard to sustain over time for me. I'm happier now, although I'm not as happy as when I was not worrying at all about my diet.

I eat lunch on campus at the student residence hall cafeteria since I really am too lazy to try to pack a (healthy) lunch. Yes, this is my choice and I realize that I'd have a healthier diet if I didn't do this; but I get some important pleasure out of NOT having to add "pack lunch" to the list of things I need to do in the morning, or even worse, before going to bed the night before. Cafeteria food is notorious for being high in bad carbs, but I can get always manage to get some healthy veggies and a piece of real fruit, as much 2% milk as I care for (no they don't have whole milk available), and usually some half-way decent meat for an entree. And I enjoy eating it. And I don't feel particularly guilty if I have a cookie or two for dessert. And on a day where I wind up with a high carb lunch? I've learned not to worry excessively about it: I'll usually manage to eat a lower carb supper. Or the next day I'll work harder to limit the carbs.

In other words, I do believe I'm now eating a healthier, more balanced diet that contains significantly more fruits and vegetables than I used to eat and as much meat and full-fat dairy as I care to eat (I don't want meat at every meal.) But carbs are part of my diet, and although I'm willing cut back on carbs, I no longer have any real desire to try to cut them out totally: my goal is to eat a lot less carbs over the course of every week rather than almost no carbs at every meal.

6. If a bowl of hot cereal is absolutely the way you want to start your day, take a look at this recipe: againstallgrain.com/2013/01/04/banana-nut-porridge/ It's not terribly low carb because of the banana, but it's grain free and delicious. If you aren't eliminating dairy, it's OK to use full fat dairy instead of coconut milk. I make 1/4 of the recipe (one serving) and don't bother soaking the nuts overnight because I use pre-soaked "crispy nuts" Weston A. Price style (soaking releases the phytates in the nuts).

Tasty to you perhaps, but there's nothing in this recipe that I find appealing. I'd rather than the banana whole (and raw), the nuts as is, and the milk in a glass. But I'd also feel better if I added a small bowl of plain old, unsweetened cold cereal. I know that's "junk food" in many people's eyes, but for me, it's something that is important emotionally and I simply won't make it to lunch time on nuts, a banana, and a glass of milk without getting a headache. With the cereal, I will get to lunch and I personally am far less likely to crave carbs (or anything else) before it's lunch time.

Anyway, I don't mean to sway you if you are comfortable with the way you are eating now, but this might be helpful for others who wonder how it might be possible to give up their morning carbs.

Yes, your suggestions are reasonable for someone who is committed to eliminating carbs from breakfast.

And I really do admire people who've made really large changes in their diets and have managed to stick with the new diet for years at a time. But I also think that the need to lose a large amount of weight certainly helps a person to stick with major changes to the diet. And for many of you who are strong advocates of extremely low carb diets, much of why you went low/no carb seems to be tied up with the fact that such a diet made it possible for you to both lose the weight you wanted to lose and to keep it off long term.

But MY goals for the dietary changes do NOT include weight loss. I am not and never have been overweight---I'm 5'1" and weigh about 110 lbs. And except for when I was pregnant, my adult weight has fluctuated between 100 and 115 pounds, with the body feeling at its best when the weight is between 105 and 110. I don't feel much different (physically) regardless of the amount of carbs I eat, except for getting a bit sleepy right after a high carb lunch, but if I focus excessively on trying to cut out all the bad carbs, I do wind up not enjoying eating on a daily basis, and that, in turn, leaves me snarly and not much fun to live with.

But the point that I'm trying to make is this: For me a truly no/low carb diet is just not sustainable over the long run. And in order to me to really change my overall diet and make it stick, the diet that I choose to eat has to work for me in the long run: I have to enjoy eating the things that are ON the diet and at the same time I also have to NOT feel like I am constantly depriving myself of what I really want to eat. In other words, I've found that for me moderation is the name of the game when it comes to carbs rather than outright elimination. Carefully choosing the carbs that I really want to eat rather than trying to give them up entirely allows me to continue to derive some pleasure out of eating, albeit not as much as I had when I didn't worry at all about what I ate on any given day.

I've never seen a NO CARB diet, even atkins in its strickest stage isn't no carb. The biggest failure on these diets is not following the diet, after the first 2 weeks on 20 carbs per day, you gradually up your carbs until you find your carb tolerence. Mine is around 100 carbs a day. Once you find your number its quite easy and I had no ill feelings after the first week. I'm not an expert on diets or healthy living, but I've lost 26 lbs on atkins in 3 months, blood test show marked improvement in lipids, bp is down, diabetes numbers are falling, so yes its worth the inconvenience.just as the cpap is inconvenient but well worth it. Those people who can eat carbs without the cravings,consider yourselves lucky. My 97 yo dad is one of those people but if I cheat I'm like an alcoholic I can't quit.

Very true, LOW carb is NOT no carb, and people are as individual as snowflakes on what they can tolerate.

There's some "cutting edge" research (based on old ideas) about the benefits of "resistant starch". Resistant starch is in COLD potatoes, rice, plantains, green bananas among other things. If it's hot, the starch is NOT resistant, but cold (certain raw or cooked and cooled starchy foods), it goes all the way to the colon without impacting blood glucose and insulin levels. The idea is that it feeds the good gut bacteria, which produce butyrate, a beneficial fatty acid.

There are a lot of people trying N=1 tests with it right now. Generally, the testers find better blood glucose control and reduction in the side effects of very low carb diets. Interesting stuff!

Not Fade wrote:I think she relies on some examples where a person ate only protein at a meal versus one who ate high-glycemic load carbs. But how many eat only protein at a meal and how many want to eat like that?

I've been watching a television show called Life Below Zero. The people in these regions eat a high protein, high fat diet. They look healthy and slim but I have no idea of their longevity.

Anyways, you mentioned glycemic load which I think is important for those who are insulin resistant. The paper referenced by OP didn't even bother to mention the concept. Point 6 was about eating small meals then completely misses the point as to why small meals are a benefit. Not that I accept everything as written but the paper looks well researched.

If you're among those who think it's all about willpower and cutting calories, here's something to
consider: http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/ ... -part-six/

Janknitz wrote:If you're among those who think it's all about willpower and cutting calories, here's something to
consider: http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/ ... -part-six/

This is a great series. Thanks for the pointer.

Anyways, you mentioned glycemic load which I think is important for those who are insulin resistant. The paper referenced by OP didn't even bother to mention the concept. Point 6 was about eating small meals then completely misses the point as to why small meals are a benefit. Not that I accept everything as written but the paper looks well researched.

I'm not one who agrees with the six small meals a day. If I am eating real, whole, nutrient dense foods and keeping the carbs in check (by default, the glycemic load is low when I reduce carbs), then my blood glucose and insulin levels stay quite even throughout the day. I eat a hearty breakfast, then I'm not hungry again until mid afternoon--usually 2 p.m. or later. Many days I'm not hungry at all until 4 or 5 p.m., when I will have a modest snack instead of a meal, because we eat dinner at 7:30 ish. When I do have lunch, it's a fairly light meal.

During dinner, my carb addict kids are already planning dessert (we have two nights a week where they get something treaty, otherwise it's leftover treats if any or fruit), and I'm thinking that X sounds nice (a small square of very dark chocolate, some berries and coconut cream, a few spoons of plain whole milk Greek yogurt). But after I do dishes and clean the kitchen, I'm rarely hungry for anything. I barely need to eat three times a day, no way I could eat 6.

I know that the benefit most people cite for frequent, small meals is to keep the blood sugar from bottoming out, but if I'm not spiking my blood sugar in the first place by eating a carb heavy load, then I don't experience those highs and lows that need to be dealt with. I can't begin to tell you how freeing this is in my life. I spent a good part of my life worrying about what and where I was going to have the next meal or snack, because I knew that if I didn't eat as frequently as every 2 hours I'd be a raving lunatic from low blood sugar. Now I can go a very long time without a problem. Since I limit WHAT I can eat, there's no need to panic if I am stuck some place without food I can eat. I know I'm good for several more hours. This is like getting out of prison--I no longer have to plan my life around meals and snacks.

High Protein/Low Carb = Shorter Longevity?

Interesting article in today's WSJ.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... ljournal_0

Janknitz wrote:I know that the benefit most people cite for frequent, small meals is to keep the blood sugar from bottoming out, but if I'm not spiking my blood sugar in the first place by eating a carb heavy load, then I don't experience those highs and lows that need to be dealt with.

I am hyper-glycemic due to insulin resistance. My blood sugars never bottom out ... in fact the opposite. My cells have decided to ignore an adequate supply of insulin and thus refuse to metabolize glucose. As you can imagine a high glucose level can lead to all kinds of cardiovascular problems.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12510788

Unfortunately Type-II diabetes is a growing epidemic and many of these people are insulin resistant. The magazine article referenced by OP didn't bother to link the concept of eating small meals with glycemic load. Missed the boat entirely. Too bad.

Eating frequent small meals having low glycemic load helps my system metabolize blood sugars. It also lessens the load on my pancreas since my endocrine system doesn't call for large sudden spikes of insulin (which my cells can't use anyways). I've collected meticulous data over the course of five years, recording every calorie and measuring pre- and post-prandial glucose levels. Carbs, protein, fat do not matter in any combination as long as each meal is around 300 - 400 calories and has low glycemic load. Processed canned foods and especially processed grains and corn are evil.

I tend to stick to whole foods, mostly vegetables, fruit and legumes, and sometimes my diet is 70% - 80% carbohydrates. No probem. I think most people get into trouble thinking of food as a source of comfort instead of nutrition. Delicious high glycemic load carbohydrates, like white bread, are just so hard to avoid