CPAPtalk.com

HoseCrusher wrote:MRRPM - your idea is a little off.

Yes if you take a deep breath and blow it all out at once you can fill the hose and machine and make air come out of the back of the machine.

However you normally don't breathe like that when you are sleeping.

If you were able to fill the hose with every breath and re-breathe you exhaled air over and over again your blood oxygen levels would drop. You can pick up an oximeter and check to see if that happens.

Since you pause at the end of each breath the pause allows the machine to clear the air out of the vents. This gives you a good supply of fresh air with every breath.

Now if you cough or sneeze with every breath all bets are off. The same goes if you pant like a dog.

HC, Thanks for your easy to follow explanation of how these life-saving machines and masks work together. I was watching my own breathing as I was reading and it all makes perfect sense!

MRRPM wrote:

The other uncomfortable thing I find about this setup, is the mass of the air & fan having to slow down when the air reverses & travels up the hose. Pressure is whatever it's programmed at, then when the air stops, pressure at the mouth/nose is higher, from the inertia of the mass of air & rotating fan blades forcing air down the tube.

If you would just quit overthinking this and go to sleep, everything might work perfectly fine for you.

Your obsession with the mechanics and skepticism about the process are setting you up for failure.

Sometimes you just have to trust the experience of millions of others who have improved their health and lives since 1980.

And no, you cannot blow air out the back of the machine while you are asleep.

I tried the machine again last nite, slept around 4-5hrs (guessing) then took it off. Woke up sometime later by the loud air coming outta the hose. IDK if it helps or not, but I will keep trying it to see what happens.

I've watched vids that explain what is happening when the machine pushes air in, I think it's supposed to prop open our airway, to allow air in? In the vids, it looks like the tongue relaxes, & falls back, blocking our airway. I don't exactly see how less than 1PSI of air pressure can/will lift the tongue enuf to open up our airway. How does that work?

Another thing my doc said was that I had central apnea, along with obstructive apnea. I don't exactly see how xPaP could help with the central, but maybe if the obstructive is fixed, the central would go away, since my brain would be more rested, & tell my lungs to breathe?

As far as me being skeptical, yes, I am about a lot of things. I see so many things that are for sale, that do nothing, yet people swear by them. One example that comes to mind, is those metal bracelets that I have seen some people wear, claiming all kindsa fixes. All that those fix, is the sellers skinny wallet syndrome. I ask them, if they're so good, why not get two, or four, for that matter, just live in a metal pipe, they'd live forever. Maybe thats the reason old army barracks were a metal half of a pipe?

MRRPM,
I was thinking about your concerns about cpap as I was falling asleep last night and realized that my machine indeed has a check valve. I use an older model Legacy Remstar mschine (sometimes called tanks). The check valve is to prevent water from flowing into the electronics from the humidifier tanks.

Also people who use oxygen supplementation often use a check valve to prevent oxygen from flowing backwards in the event that the blower shuts off. (Fire or explosion risk) So if you really wanted to, just to alleviate your concerns, you could track down a check valve and use it on your machine. Won't hurt anything but I don't think you'll see any major improvement.

It only takes about 45 cm h2o for a ventilator to expand the lungs and breath for a paralised person...just to put the pressure thing in perspective, CPAP and BIPAP machines operate at a lot less, but it is enough to keep the airways open. Each person and each case is different.

It took me almost a year of mask switching and different machine pressures before I got the hang of cpap (or BiPap in my case). Now if I try and sleep without it, I'm back to where I was 2 years ago. I'd fall asleep and gasp awake with my heart pounding...all night long and wake up with a headache. I'd have to pee 6 times a night, BP out of control. With BIPAP I can sleep most of the night through with light arousals from arthritis...so I roll over and fall asleep again. No nocturia. I awaken well rested with no headache, BP manageable on half the medication.

I also have central apneas like many people do and that requires a mchine that is capable of dealing with them. A machine that senses when no breathing occurs and gives a blast of air to trigger a breath. A few short centrals, however, occur with everybody. The length and level of desaturation (O2 drop) determines if they need treatment with special machine.

CPAP/BIPAP isn't snake oil...there's real science behind it. I suggest you read the sticky at the top of the forum entitled "Newbie would like to hear success stories, please".

The sooner you overcome your skepticism and resistance, the sooner you'll be able to work on the real problems you're having with cpap.
Good luck to you,
Jamis

PS Glad you made it 4 or 5 hours last night. Hang in there.

I don't exactly see how less than 1PSI of air pressure can/will lift the tongue enuf to open up our airway. How does that work?

Man, you are waaaay overthinking this.

The pressure does not lift the tongue up. It just causes a break in the air dam created by the soft palate and tongue. Typically it is just a small opening created by moving some of the very flaccid soft palate.

An opening as small as a common drinking straw is enough to breathe properly when you are asleep. While sleeping you are not taking big gulps like sprinting 100m.

One example that comes to mind, is those metal bracelets that I have seen some people wear, claiming all kindsa fixes.

Ridiculous to compare to CPAP. So ridiculous that I am leaving this thread (I know, no one cares).

But I do hope you take good advantage of the therapy and become a promoter for CPAP.

You are over thinking this. Reminds me of when I first started and spent an hour every morning sterilizing everything! Now, I wipe the mask off with a baby wipe (if I remember) and wash with baby shampoo when I think about it. Which reminds me, I haven't checked the filter in a really long time.

Make sure there is distilled water in the humidifier, put the mask on and "forgit" about it. Go to sleep and allow the machine to do what it was made to do. Yes, there is "stuff" out there that people foolishly spend money on. This machine isn't one of them tho. Once you let go and just accept that it's working like it should, you'll start to feel so much better that you will turn into a believer.

It's great that you slept so many hours last night... hope that you have many good nights.

Thinking more, If gravity is pulling our tongue/soft palate down, causing OSA, why couldn't we sleep looking down, like on a massage table?

MRRPM wrote:Thinking more, If gravity is pulling our tongue/soft palate down, causing OSA, why couldn't we sleep looking down, like on a massage table?

You are bringing nothing new to the forum. This has been talked about for at least nine years - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=353&p=1925&hilit=+m ... able#p1628

and

search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&keywords=%2Bm ... +&start=45

MRRPM, as others have said, there's no question you are over-thinking this. In principle, it just isn't that complicated. CPAP works by ensuring the air pressure in your entire airway is held above ambient pressure throughout the entire breathing cycle, gently inflating your airway and preventing it from collapsing. Air is continually vented from the mask at a rate sufficient to ensure a fresh supply at all times. The technology works as advertised. Use it and enjoy its benefits.

I hate to say it but this is a topic that is going to keep coming up over and over again.

Some people do not enjoy researching. They would rather have a representative give an over simplified explanation and then cave to a counter argument. Unfortunately medicine is not as similar to the burgerking drive through as most would like it to be.

Mr Concerned wrote: Some people do not enjoy researching. They would rather have a representative give an over simplified explanation and then cave to a counter argument. Unfortunately medicine is not as similar to the burgerking drive through as most would like it to be.

Where is the LIKE button!

Whatever. Just trying to help.

SleepyBobR wrote:MRRPM, as others have said, there's no question you are over-thinking this. In principle, it just isn't that complicated. CPAP works by ensuring the air pressure in your entire airway is held above ambient pressure throughout the entire breathing cycle, gently inflating your airway and preventing it from collapsing. Air is continually vented from the mask at a rate sufficient to ensure a fresh supply at all times. The technology works as advertised. Use it and enjoy its benefits.

Ok, I see, see if this makes sense: Since pressure from the machine, is low, really low, one wouldn't think that there would be enuf pressure to open anything, but... the surface area of the tongue would be rather large, and as we know, it's soft & relaxed. So it doesn't take much pressure to raise it a small amount, to keep us breathing. Kinda like those low pressure bags that are used to raise entire vehicles, in vehicle turnovers.

All I'm asking for is an explanation that agrees with the laws of physics. If the tech works, it must not break even one of these laws, so far, I'm getting it, with some help from some on here, sorta piecing together what's happening. If it, (or anything) doesn't agree with physics, it is snake oil.

MRRPM wrote:

SleepyBobR wrote:MRRPM, as others have said, there's no question you are over-thinking this. In principle, it just isn't that complicated. CPAP works by ensuring the air pressure in your entire airway is held above ambient pressure throughout the entire breathing cycle, gently inflating your airway and preventing it from collapsing. Air is continually vented from the mask at a rate sufficient to ensure a fresh supply at all times. The technology works as advertised. Use it and enjoy its benefits.

Ok, I see, see if this makes sense: Since pressure from the machine, is low, really low, one wouldn't think that there would be enuf pressure to open anything, but... the surface area of the tongue would be rather large, and as we know, it's soft & relaxed. So it doesn't take much pressure to raise it a small amount, to keep us breathing. Kinda like those low pressure bags that are used to raise entire vehicles, in vehicle turnovers.

All I'm asking for is an explanation that agrees with the laws of physics. If the tech works, it must not break even one of these laws, so far, I'm getting it, with some help from some on here, sorta piecing together what's happening. If it, (or anything) doesn't agree with physics, it is snake oil.

What part of this is beyond your grasp?

You're SUPPOSED to keep your tongue to the roof of your mouth while you sleep.......so you can breathe through your nose and get air into your lungs through the natural breathing process. The appropriately determined amount of air pressure is supposed to "splint" your airway open to keep you breathing and to lessen the number of apneas, hypopneas, etc. It's NOT "physics".......it's physiology and anatomy. Each of us is different and many of us need different pressures, machines, humidity levels and masks. And, it's NOT "snake oil".


Den

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@MRRPM: You really need to step back a few steps, or even squint:
"Cultural Dictionary
can't see the forest for the trees definition
An expression used of someone who is too involved in the details of a problem to look at the situation as a whole"
Cpap works, even if you don't understand it: doctors know it; insurance companies know it, WE know it works.
It even works for a baby with Down syndrome. Give yourself a chance for a longer, healthier life.
There was a study that showed it improved one's golf game. Strong evidence exists that it helps with ED.