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kaiasgram wrote:

mollete wrote:"IMHO", the best drug to TFU your sleep is Lexapro (escitalopram).

Hi mollete, would you elaborate?

It can cause one to have tons of spontaneous arousals, and consequently fragment sleep.

A somewhat dated, but good general summary:

http://www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/pccpdf/ ... 3n0303.pdf

oak wrote:what is TTC?

One too many "T"s.

I just recently tapered off Wellbutrin(Buproprion) because it made my insomnia much worse, stimulated me as if I was drinking coffee all day. Interestingly it was prescribed to me by my sleep doc who thought if I was more stimulated during the day I would get more tired by the time night cam around and I went to bed. Couldn't be more wrong.

In the past I had tried Remeron, made me gain 20 lbs, a not uncommon side effect, and I can't say that it did much for my insomnia either.

I've also tried most of the SSRI's and SNRI's at one time or another and never found any of them to be very useful.

What I have found that affects my sleep quality in a big way is the amount of thyroid hormone that I take for my hypo-thyroidism. My labs always indicated I needed a larger does but I found I feel much better at a smaller dose, this has had a bigger affect on my sleep quality than any ADs ever had.

mollete wrote:

oak wrote:what is TTC?

One too many "T"s.

Tricyclic antidepressant. And like mollete said this group of ADs is the most sleep-friendly. Many docs prescribe it at very low doses to help with sleep -- rarely the first choice for antidepressant therapy because of the side effects at doses required to treat depression.

mollete wrote:

kaiasgram wrote:

mollete wrote:"IMHO", the best drug to TFU your sleep is Lexapro (escitalopram).

Hi mollete, would you elaborate?

It can cause one to have tons of spontaneous arousals, and consequently fragment sleep.

A somewhat dated, but good general summary:

http://www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/pccpdf/ ... 3n0303.pdf

Worse than the other SSRIs? I couldn't find a specific reference to escitalopram in the article (but thanks for the link to it, it's a good overview).

thanks everyone for your responses. i think i am going to try to talk psychiatrist into reducing the effexor at the next appt and see how it goes. I think much of my depression for the last few years was due to sleep deprivation.

Oak, that is highly likely. I am already able to lower my SSRI meds due to using CPAP.

kaiasgram wrote:

mollete wrote:

kaiasgram wrote:

mollete wrote:"IMHO", the best drug to TFU your sleep is Lexapro (escitalopram).

Hi mollete, would you elaborate?

It can cause one to have tons of spontaneous arousals, and consequently fragment sleep.

A somewhat dated, but good general summary:

http://www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/pccpdf/ ... 3n0303.pdf

Worse than the other SSRIs? I couldn't find a specific reference to escitalopram in the article (but thanks for the link to it, it's a good overview).

Right, escitalopram (the S-enantiomer of citalopram) wouldn't show up for ~2 years after the article.

Interesting history about Lexapro, though. It happened to come out at the end of citalopram's life cycle, and is frequently presented as a showcase example of evergreening. There was a massive push to present it as better than citalopram, with a lot of studies "supporting" that.

While it may appear that I am Jerry Fletcher in disguise, if you look real closely:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2829184/

I just recently tapered off Wellbutrin(Buproprion) because it made my insomnia much worse, stimulated me as if I was drinking coffee all day. Interestingly it was prescribed to me by my sleep doc who thought if I was more stimulated during the day I would get more tired by the time night cam around and I went to bed. Couldn't be more wrong

What medical school did he go to? Crackerjack University? Insomnia is one of the most common side effects of Wellbutrin. I can't believe he prescribed that for someone already suffering from the condition.

In the past I had tried Remeron, made me gain 20 lbs, a not uncommon side effect, and I can't say that it did much for my insomnia either.

I was on it for years. Initially, it was helpful and then ceased being so which required that Doxepin be added to the mix. Unfortunately, I didn't realize that I was probably dealing with undiagnosed apnea.

I've also tried most of the SSRI's and SNRI's at one time or another and never found any of them to be very useful.

Same here. A few worked for about a year before they went south on me. Ugh!

What I have found that affects my sleep quality in a big way is the amount of thyroid hormone that I take for my hypo-thyroidism. My labs always indicated I needed a larger does but I found I feel much better at a smaller dose, this has had a bigger affect on my sleep quality than any ADs ever had.

I am happy you found the key to solving your insomnia.

49er

oak wrote:thanks everyone for your responses. i think i am going to try to talk psychiatrist into reducing the effexor at the next appt and see how it goes. I think much of my depression for the last few years was due to sleep deprivation.

I think this is a great idea. Just be aware that with any taper there will usually be an undesirable effect (ie increased anxiety) and that you have to be committed to forge on through it and not give in...

You mentioned that you may have been prescribed this drug for depression due to sleep apnea symptoms; this is not uncommon. Many of us were diagnosed and treated for depression, low testosterone, high blood pressure, etc... All conditions that often go away with well-treated apnea. Then begins the battle of getting off unnecessary medications.

The problem with medications for depression is that it takes time for the body to adapt and supply its own sufficient serotonin after the drug supply has been cut off (this is the same for testosterone replacement). There is often a period of 3 to 6 months while the body seems to assess the problem and react, so it may be unrealistic to think that things will get better right away after stopping a medication.

I wish you luck, and the patience you will require.

RandyJ wrote:

oak wrote:thanks everyone for your responses. i think i am going to try to talk psychiatrist into reducing the effexor at the next appt and see how it goes. I think much of my depression for the last few years was due to sleep deprivation.

For anyone interested, I've begun a regimen of taking Phosphatidyl Serine Matrix (about 300 mg/day) to heal brain damage caused by apnea and to just generally feel better. It also helps to ward off dementia, Parkinsons, Alzheimers, etc.-- Google it. It has made a huge difference in how I feel and think. I believe it is about the same thing as Lecithin (shown for repairing brain matter caused by apnea). This is what I take:

http://www.amazon.com/Source-Naturals-P ... e+naturals

Loreena wrote:For anyone interested, I've begun a regimen of taking Phosphatidyl Serine Matrix (about 300 mg/day) to heal brain damage caused by apnea and to just generally feel better. It also helps to ward off dementia, Parkinsons, Alzheimers, etc.-- Google it. It has made a huge difference in how I feel and think. I believe it is about the same thing as Lecithin (shown for repairing brain matter caused by apnea). This is what I take:
http://www.amazon.com/Source-Naturals-P ... e+naturals

Loreena, I've taken PS off and on but mostly it's been too expensive for me -- that Amazon price is good. Question: the amount of actual PS per softgel is 100 mg, so are you taking 3 softgels per day to get to the 300 mg you mentioned above? I may give it another try.

mollete wrote:

kaiasgram wrote:

mollete wrote:

kaiasgram wrote:

mollete wrote:"IMHO", the best drug to TFU your sleep is Lexapro (escitalopram).

Hi mollete, would you elaborate?

It can cause one to have tons of spontaneous arousals, and consequently fragment sleep.

A somewhat dated, but good general summary:

http://www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/pccpdf/ ... 3n0303.pdf

Worse than the other SSRIs? I couldn't find a specific reference to escitalopram in the article (but thanks for the link to it, it's a good overview).

Right, escitalopram (the S-enantiomer of citalopram) wouldn't show up for ~2 years after the article.

Interesting history about Lexapro, though. It happened to come out at the end of citalopram's life cycle, and is frequently presented as a showcase example of evergreening. There was a massive push to present it as better than citalopram, with a lot of studies "supporting" that.

While it may appear that I am Jerry Fletcher in disguise, if you look real closely:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2829184/

Thanks for the link. Yes, lexapro was supposed to be a more refined version -- an upgrade so to speak -- of celexa. Its big selling point for patients was that it didn't tend to have the sexual side effects of celexa and the other SSRIs. In my clinical practice many of my clients who were on lexapro did find that it didn't interfere with sex like some of the other SSRIs they'd been on in the past.

RandyJ wrote:

oak wrote:thanks everyone for your responses. i think i am going to try to talk psychiatrist into reducing the effexor at the next appt and see how it goes. I think much of my depression for the last few years was due to sleep deprivation.

I think this is a great idea. Just be aware that with any taper there will usually be an undesirable effect (ie increased anxiety) and that you have to be committed to forge on through it and not give in...

You mentioned that you may have been prescribed this drug for depression due to sleep apnea symptoms; this is not uncommon. Many of us were diagnosed and treated for depression, low testosterone, high blood pressure, etc... All conditions that often go away with well-treated apnea. Then begins the battle of getting off unnecessary medications.

The problem with medications for depression is that it takes time for the body to adapt and supply its own sufficient serotonin after the drug supply has been cut off (this is the same for testosterone replacement). There is often a period of 3 to 6 months while the body seems to assess the problem and react, so it may be unrealistic to think that things will get better right away after stopping a medication.

I wish you luck, and the patience you will require.

Thanks much Randy for your comments. I am taking this slowly and realize its a journey, not a sprint. Regards, Oak.

kaiasgram wrote:

Loreena wrote:For anyone interested, I've begun a regimen of taking Phosphatidyl Serine Matrix (about 300 mg/day) to heal brain damage caused by apnea and to just generally feel better. It also helps to ward off dementia, Parkinsons, Alzheimers, etc.-- Google it. It has made a huge difference in how I feel and think. I believe it is about the same thing as Lecithin (shown for repairing brain matter caused by apnea). This is what I take:
http://www.amazon.com/Source-Naturals-P ... e+naturals

Loreena, I've taken PS off and on but mostly it's been too expensive for me -- that Amazon price is good. Question: the amount of actual PS per softgel is 100 mg, so are you taking 3 softgels per day to get to the 300 mg you mentioned above? I may give it another try.

Yes, I take 100 mg with each meal. Actually, truth be told, I am also taking a 100 mg Lecithin about 2 or 3 times a day as well, as I am finishing up a bottle of that. I believe I read in one of the reviews (on Amazon) of PS, not sure which brand, that it is optimal to take about 800 to 900 mg of PS a day! I have a feeling I may settle on more than 300 mg a day. But the bottle of PS says to take 300 mg a day.

Also, with the PS, I am taking (1) Alpha Lipoic Acid and 2 fish oils a day as well as (1) theanine and 100 mg of Vitamin E (I heard about taking this amount of Vitamine E on a holistic radio show (it's great for your brain)), and also Ginko Biloba (2 a day) (and Vitamin D of course). Once you read the reviews of these products, you'll be able to see what they do exactly. So I'm not 100% that it is the PS that's making me feel so good, but I am pretty sure that it plays a large part. To arrive at these products, I did extensive research on the Internet about supplements that are good for your brain and that heal it. Here's what I take:

http://www.amazon.com/Jarrow-Formulas-A ... cid+biotin

http://www.amazon.com/Puritans-Pride-Om ... n+fish+oil

http://www.amazon.com/Jarrow-Formulas-T ... s=theanine

http://www.amazon.com/Ginkgo-Biloba-Ext ... kgo+biloba