CPAPtalk.com

Space Oddity wrote:

Grego wrote: This is all I have to say. It is not my intention to start a flame war or or cause any other friction

The infamous "hit and run" approach. State an opinion highly critical of the forum and demand no counterarguments.

Glad to see this approach is not accepted in the fine forum.

Frankly, I didn't see the original post(er) as highly critical of the forum, but just another point of view. As far as I can see, there have always been many differing points of view expressed here and we, as critical readers, can read and consider all views and then choose which ones we are most persuaded by.

Although I didn't necessarily agree with everything the original poster said, and I thought some very good opposing points were raised in response, such as the fact that most people do not have the opportunity or luxury to keep shopping doctors after getting stuck with an inadequate or disinterested one, I did feel that he was sincere in his original post, and that it is worth keeping in mind.

There have been other regular and sincere members who have cautioned against hasty "dial twirling" and diagnosis by internet - some of whom are well-regarded regulars and post almost daily with other helpful suggestions.

And my memory brings to mind a long recent saga of a newcomer who, right from the get-go, was changing his settings every 2-3 days and becoming more and more miserable, until he finally followed the advice of several long-time veterans here on cpaptalk who had been almost yelling at him to stay on the original doctor-prescribed settings for a longer period of time before fiddling. When he finally listened to the old-timers, he finally got relief. Sometimes newcomers coming here can get the wrong impression and think they have made themselves into one-day wonders. No experienced cpaptalk member wants to see that happen.

Best wishes, Nate

I don't believe in "rewriting history" so I think it would be wrong for me to try to remove my remarks above. However, I am adding this comment because my eyes have been opened by Pugsy's post below. See below for details. I did not realize that the original poster has a history of opposing all information and advice offered on cpaptalk, including that offered by Pugsy. That is just plain wrong! Therefore I am retracting my "defense" of his position. I apparently misunderstood its sweeping breadth and scope. Sorry!

-Nate

Grego has issues with a lot more than just dial a wingin pressure changes.
He has issues with the fact that some of us try to educate people about how, why and what the data represents.
I first heard from him in response to my SleepyHead Understanding your software reports thread where all I did was explain what the data meant and how to analyze what is seen...he doesn't think anyone but doctors are smart enough or knowledgeable enough to understand what the software shows or how the machines work or the interaction between the OSA and the various functions on the machine.

Apparently he doesn't think I am "qualified" to offer my comments and that my 4 years experience means nothing even though he has no idea what my educational level is or anything along those lines because I pretty much told him it was none of his business what I did or didn't do in college. Yes, he sent me a private message quizzing me on my "credentials" and I didn't respond warmly....big surprise huh? Yes, I do have a college degree and it is in the medical profession but it is nobody's business what it is. Having it enabled me to absorb this OSA and CPAP stuff fairly easily....and like others have said....most of it is just plain old fashioned common sense anyway and all the machine specs and how they work are all available for viewing and reading in various places on the internet. I didn't just pull what I say out of my behind. I studied long and hard to further my already fairly extensive medical background (and that's all I want to say about that fact).

Anyway....I am one of those people who he thinks has no business saying what I say sometimes... I don't know if he has also privately chastised any of the others (like he did me).....like SWS or JohnBFish or Wulfman or any one else who actually makes some sort of comment about therapy results, machine functions or whatever.

He said he didn't want to name names but you know what.....I will step up and offer my name and I have the private messages saved for proof. He doesn't think I am qualified to explain how this stuff works.
I was going to stay out of this thread but I just can't let it slide without airing the rest of the story.
I don't know why he bothers with this forum anyway since he feels that we lack any "credentials" that are worthy of paying any attention to.

Thanks for saying it Pugsy.

I smelled a rat when I got to Grego's second paragraph and the smell did not go away.

Long live The Forum!

Thanks for providing that information, Pugsy.

He's never PM'd me......and it would have been a huge mistake on his part if he had.

So, I guess the words "arrogant" and "condescending" were pretty accurate (for me).


Den

.

If I had known this history and background of Grego's past behavior, I would not have said what I said in my post above.

I have benefited greatly from the knowledge I have acquired here on cpaptalk from you Pugsy, John Fisher and many, many others. I would not have gotten the machine I got, or the therapy I have gotten, without that knowledge, insight, reassurance and support gained from you and others here.

Thanks for clarifying and giving me this background.

Best wishes, Nate

Pugsy wrote:Grego has issues with a lot more than just dial a wingin pressure changes.
He has issues with the fact that some of us try to educate people about how, why and what the data represents.
I first heard from him in response to my SleepyHead Understanding your software reports thread where all I did was explain what the data meant and how to analyze what is seen...he doesn't think anyone but doctors are smart enough or knowledgeable enough to understand what the software shows or how the machines work or the interaction between the OSA and the various functions on the machine.

Apparently he doesn't think I am "qualified" to offer my comments and that my 4 years experience means nothing even though he has no idea what my educational level is or anything along those lines because I pretty much told him it was none of his business what I did or didn't do in college. Yes, he sent me a private message quizzing me on my "credentials" and I didn't respond warmly....big surprise huh? Yes, I do have a college degree and it is in the medical profession but it is nobody's business what it is. Having it enabled me to absorb this OSA and CPAP stuff fairly easily....and like others have said....most of it is just plain old fashioned common sense anyway and all the machine specs and how they work are all available for viewing and reading in various places on the internet. I didn't just pull what I say out of my behind. I studied long and hard to further my already fairly extensive medical background (and that's all I want to say about that fact).

Anyway....I am one of those people who he thinks has no business saying what I say sometimes... I don't know if he has also privately chastised any of the others (like he did me).....like SWS or JohnBFish or Wulfman or any one else who actually makes some sort of comment about therapy results, machine functions or whatever.

He said he didn't want to name names but you know what.....I will step up and offer my name and I have the private messages saved for proof. He doesn't think I am qualified to explain how this stuff works.
I was going to stay out of this thread but I just can't let it slide without airing the rest of the story.
I don't know why he bothers with this forum anyway since he feels that we lack any "credentials" that are worthy of paying any attention to.

Wulfman... wrote:He's never PM'd me......and it would have been a huge mistake on his part if he had.

So, I guess the words "arrogant" and "condescending" were pretty accurate (for me).

He would have a hard time sending you a PM... I was going to send you a regular email and tell you the rest of the story privately but decided what the hell...go tell the whole world.

Yep, your choice of adjectives were pretty much what I thought but I do admit to also having a few more colorful adjectives in addition to yours.

archangle wrote:...
1) Your doctor should insist on a data capable machine. Most do not.
2) Your doctor should review the data your machine collects every night, not just look at one night's PSG results. Most do not.
3) Your doctor should look at the AHI and other data, Most of the ones who look at the data don't look in detail.
4) Your doctor should know techniques to make CPAP easier and more efficient. Most don't bother.
5) Your doctor should understand how to solve CPAP and apnea problems. Most are simply appliance salesmen who leave all the details to the DME.

You also need to know what you have to put up with and when you need to insist that the doctor help you fix. Most doctors aren't very good at this, and downplay the problems their CPAP patients have and tell them to tough it out.

archangle, I think you nailed it.
My sleep doc fobbed me off to a DME that didn't know the product, and knew less about the software. She didn't even have it. I showed her the software. She didn't want to deal with me after that, primarily I think because she knew she couldn't make changes to my machine without the doctor prescribing it. I also didn't need any equipment, so that was another reason for the DME to discontinue helping me. When I showed my S9 sleep data to the sleep doc, he scoffed at it and said it was useless information from a toy. Literally.

Sleep docs don't make money on consulting. They make money signing-off what the sleep techs grade on your studies. When somnology and commerce collide, you get warm-bed sleep farms that are looking for no anomalies - only OSA. If insurance doesn't require pre and post interviews with the sleep doc, they won't. They'll just send out your prescription to the nearest DME and get rid of you.

I find it tragic that way too many patients fail to look beyond their "almighty, infallible" doctor for optimal treatment.
My doctor is not much better than most in my area, but for my purposes, he provides a "rubber stamp" to
what I have already done with guidance from the veterans on the forum.

Pugsy wrote:

Wulfman... wrote:He's never PM'd me......and it would have been a huge mistake on his part if he had.

So, I guess the words "arrogant" and "condescending" were pretty accurate (for me).

He would have a hard time sending you a PM... I was going to send you a regular email and tell you the rest of the story privately but decided what the hell...go tell the whole world.

Yep, your choice of adjectives were pretty much what I thought but I do admit to also having a few more colorful adjectives in addition to yours.

Actually, I still do get PMs......from people who bother to look up my registered user name. (not that much different from this one)

If he hasn't bothered to contact any male forum members, maybe he's also a sexist aaaassssssss.


Den

.

I thought by now someone would have said it.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Grego on February 24, 2013 wrote:Thank'ee
This is a GREAT site.

Looking back at Grego's posts since he joined the forum, it appears that he got some great help here. Why the need to devalue the forum now is anybody's guess. But Pugsy, one only needs to read this comment in his first line:

I am not a doctor; I don't even play one on TV

And this comment in his last line:

which is why I omitted names

to connect the dots and suspect he was targeting you. So I'm glad you spoke up. Most of us who have been on the board for a while know only too well that you and some of the other seasoned veterans on the forum have kept many of us from giving up on our PAP therapy, and indeed have likely helped save some lives along the way. Precious few of us have gotten a fraction of the attention and assistance we've received here from our sleep doctors -- that is, those of us who even have sleep doctors.

I am a patient in one of the largest healthcare systems in the country -- where the vast majority of patients are screened at home, diagnosed remotely, titrated at home, assigned a machine and sent on their way without ever seeing a sleep medicine doctor. How fortunate for Grego that he was able to access a good team of sleep professionals, but what limited thinking to suppose that others, therefore, could and should be able to do the same.

To (loosely) quote "Weakest Link":
"Grego, You have to return to your village; they need their idiot back."

In the end, all of us here are presumably competent adults who will have to live with the consequences of our own health decisions for better or for worse. In that light, does it make sense to denying relevant information or treatment options from the very people who ultimately have to make their own medical care decisions and live with the consequences? Does that help them make good decisions in the long run?

As if driving I-95 in the Philly area isn't hair-raising enough, now I have to watch for
drivers who think it is acceptable to be "on the road in a state that "is somewhere
between falling asleep and passing out."

Has your wonderful sleep doctor approved of this course of action?

I didn't know about Grego's history on this forum, but I still think his post has some value.

For me it's not ether or, but both. I had limited contact with my sleep doc, but he did nail my therapy and I'm extremely thankful. I also love this forum for filling a much needed gap for many of us. In my opinion, this forum, and others like it, are the best thing about the Web.