CPAPtalk.com

I do resent and feel kind of vulnerable needing to use CPAP – it is always a hassle and what if power becomes unavailable long term?

I would and I think we all would like to not need it.

That said I know I now need it and am glad to have it.

49er wrote:You keep citing a 20% success rate after 1 year at 4 hours a night. Do you have a citation?

Totally understandable that you feel vulnerable. But regarding power being unavailable long term, the chances of that are very slim.

Expert Interview: Dr. Carl Stepnowsky on CPAP Adherence August 21, 2012
http://doctorstevenpark.com/expert-inte ... -adherence
adherence rates: The MP3 @ starting at twelve minutes and twenty four seconds (condensed):
“Of 100 people who are diagnosed with Sleep Apnea and referred for CPAP 80 accept the CPAP, 40 continue at one year, of those 40 who continue after a year 20 are using it at the acceptable rate of 4 hours per night.”

Thank you for providing that.

I don't think you can make any claim based on a study of 100 people.

Eucapnic breathing retraining will probably help few. It takes too much effort.

For you I strongly recommend that you work with your doctor to establish EERS or obtain a new breathing volume aware machine (advanced ASV).

Why would I do that since I obtained improvement on a Devilbiss autopap machine at a straight pressure of 5 with a neck collar?

EERS: Gilmartin G, McGeehan B, Vigneault K, Daly RW, Manento M, Weiss JW, Thomas RJ.
Treatment of positive airway pressure treatment-associated respiratory instability with enhanced expiratory rebreathing space (EERS).
Source: J Clin Sleep Med. 2010 Dec 15;6(6):529-38. Division of Pulmonary, Critical Care and Sleep Medicine, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Boston, MA, USA.
Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21206741

Thanks for the reference. Is it totally accessible or just an abstract? Unless it is totally accessible, then it is not going to be helpful.

I am simply sharing something I have found that works for me. I am also finding that others are finding the theory good. Consider what Dr. Barry Krakow mentioned concerning Dr Buteyko's theories which are all about eucapnic breathing:

Dr. Barry Krakow mentions that Dr. Buteyko's theories are being found to be true:

MP3 of (at 57:38) - Expert Interview: Dr. Barry Krakow on PTSD, Insomnia, and Sleep Apnea http://doctorstevenpark.com/expert-inte ... leep-apnea

You may have missed my previous response to you on this issue on another post but I listened to that segment and it had nothing to with eucapnic breathing or buteyko theories. Are you sure you have right tape?

I understand you sharing what works for you but when you post, in my opinion, you unintentionally state it as fact vs. your experience. I realize the differences can be subtle but that is way it is coming across to me.

Have a great new year 49er!

Thanks, you do the same.

49er

BlackSpinner wrote:Yes!
The law of Nature really is to survive in any way we can and if that includes cpap machine, artificial hearts and lung, bionic legs and arms, hearing aids or down filled parkas and mukluks so be it. We are natural beings and therefore anything we make can be called natural.

And after all Nature thinks it is perfectly natural for a critter to lay eggs in another critter which when they hatch, eat their way out of their living host. If that is natural then so is my cpap machine.

Edited to add: I am also ok to call my cpap machine unnatural if eating ones way out of living creature is all natural.

That is better than any sermon I heard this year. You're the bomb, BlackSpinner.

zoocrewphoto wrote:

Todzo wrote: For the past five or so years I have pursued doing my 10,000 steps a day - along eating well - sleeping well. I never have quite made it but to average over 100 miles a month.

My daughter and myself have noted that my chin has come forward notably. Not kidding here. Perhaps when you exercise you do indeed activate genes which make real changes in your physiology.

FWIW

You may have toned up the area or reduced some fat, making it look like chin is more distinct. But exercise isn't going to make your jaw grow.

Exercise is involved in all kinds of cellular signaling including gene activation.

Look at the chins of athletes!!

zoocrewphoto wrote:I used to walk over 6 miles a day. I still had asthma, small airways, etc.

When I first started my breathing retraining one thing I noticed is that I was over breathing while doing exercise! It surprised me. And understanding that doing so frustrates the very metabolism necessary to facilitate gain from the exercise and keep harm from the exercise from happening honestly concerned me.

I use my pulse oximeter at the gym regularly. I find it good to have on the tread mill or eliptical.

Again we need to not lack carbon dioxide otherwise circulation and metabolism are frustrated. It is as bad as or worse than lacking oxygen. It tends to be transitory in how it happens and while the body can long term respond to the changes in PH the transitory nature of this frustrates that response.

Todzo wrote: For the past five or so years I have pursued doing my 10,000 steps a day - along eating well - sleeping well. I never have quite made it but to average over 100 miles a month.

My daughter and myself have noted that my chin has come forward notably. Not kidding here. Perhaps when you exercise you do indeed activate genes which make real changes in your physiology.

FWIW

ROFLMAO
After my hysterectomy back in '95 I started working out with weights and running. I wasn't over weight at all I had maybe and extra 10 lbs on me. We were eating macrobiotic vegetarian mostly. I was also practising yoga and various relaxation breathing techniques, learning acupressure and massage. By the end of the year there wasn't an ounce of fat on me except what was in my bra - I was about 112 lbs. But my chin never moved forward and my snoring was still so bad I no longer pretended to share a bedroom with my partner. No amount of working out, cycling, running, breathing exercises, visualization or trance work affected my breathing.

49er wrote:

EERS: Gilmartin G, McGeehan B, Vigneault K, Daly RW, Manento M, Weiss JW, Thomas RJ.
Treatment of positive airway pressure treatment-associated respiratory instability with enhanced expiratory rebreathing space (EERS).
Source: J Clin Sleep Med. 2010 Dec 15;6(6):529-38. Division of Pulmonary, Critical Care and Sleep Medicine, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Boston, MA, USA.
Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21206741

Thanks for the reference. Is it totally accessible or just an abstract? Unless it is totally accessible, then it is not going to be helpful.

Did you click on the link provided? In the top right hand corner of the page there is a link to the free article on PubMed Central.

I lost 65 pounds while using my machine (since 12/2010) and I doubt that it helped much with the apnea. From what my wife has told me, on those rare occasions when I have nodded off without the cpap, I still stop breathing. I became a vegan shortly after starting the cpap therapy, and the weight loss was easy, and I feel great. I eliminated two medications as a result (direct?) of my changed diet and sleep pattern. Weight loss, healthy eating, and an "interesting" and fun exercise regimen does worlds of good as does my cpap. ( just what the doctors keep telling us! )
My machine came with a nice travel case, not too hard to take along on trips.
Good luck.

SleepyToo2 wrote:

49er wrote:

EERS: Gilmartin G, McGeehan B, Vigneault K, Daly RW, Manento M, Weiss JW, Thomas RJ.
Treatment of positive airway pressure treatment-associated respiratory instability with enhanced expiratory rebreathing space (EERS).
Source: J Clin Sleep Med. 2010 Dec 15;6(6):529-38. Division of Pulmonary, Critical Care and Sleep Medicine, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Boston, MA, USA.
Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21206741

Thanks for the reference. Is it totally accessible or just an abstract? Unless it is totally accessible, then it is not going to be helpful.

Did you click on the link provided? In the top right hand corner of the page there is a link to the free article on PubMed Central.

Sure did

In all seriousness, thanks for checking and my apologies to Todzo for my temporary brain cramp.

49er

49er wrote:If you're still vehemently opposed to taking your machine out of town, you could look into provent or a dental device. 49er

49er, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this point of using a dental device as a temporary replacement for Guest to take xpap machine out of town.
As I stated in another post: The dental appliance and the xpap work as a tag team. All the dental appliance does is move your jaw forward to allow more airway, but it doesn't "cure" you. The xpap "gives" you the necessary therapy for the OSA. When I have only used the dental appliance and not my apap, the chances are very high to getting a migraine the next day.

Starlette

Starlette wrote:

49er wrote:If you're still vehemently opposed to taking your machine out of town, you could look into provent or a dental device. 49er

49er, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this point of using a dental device as a temporary replacement for Guest to take xpap machine out of town.
As I stated in another post: The dental appliance and the xpap work as a tag team. All the dental appliance does is move your jaw forward to allow more airway, but it doesn't "cure" you. The xpap "gives" you the necessary therapy for the OSA. When I have only used the dental appliance and not my apap, the chances are very high to getting a migraine the next day.

Starlette

Sorry Starlette, I didn't mean to imply that these items cured anything or should be a full time replacement as my reasoning was that some treatment was better than nothing.

Pats who used to post on these forums felt that Provent worked very well for out of town trips. Regarding dental devices, according to the sleep medicine dentist who posts on the other board, the tap III is the most effective device based on research.

Personally, if I had mild apnea and hate cpap which I don't, I would have no qualms about trying it. But for moderate and severe apnea, the odds of it being an effective permanent replacement would not be as great.

However, if people felt they honestly gave cpap a try, I could see it working perhaps in combination with a neck collar. Again, I don't think it would be as effective as cpap but it would increase the odds of a lower AHI.

49er

Understood 49er. Thank you for responding.

Guest, should you choose to use the Provent or dental appliance singularly when out of town, one thing I would definitely keep in check is how you feel the next day. If you're feeling just as lousy as before using xpap (fatigued, headaches, fuzzy headed, etc.), then I would give this alternative two thumbs down. You may even want to consider purchasing a travel xpap that can be found inexpensively on Ebay, which I've never used. For those "travel days", I would seriously consider purchasing an oximeter to make sure your oxygen saturation doesn't go downward.

My 2 cents for the day.
Starlette

49er wrote: Sure did

In all seriousness, thanks for checking and my apologies to Todzo for my temporary brain cramp.

49er

I think (hope!) we are all allowed temporary brain cramp as we approach the end of the year! Hope the XPAP can fix that sometime!

Todzo wrote: Exercise is involved in all kinds of cellular signaling including gene activation.

Look at the chins of athletes!!

Can you show me an example of somebody who was overweight, became an athlete, and their jaw GREW?

I don't mean that it looked more distinct because the fat from the neck was gone. But actually got bigger, as in more room inside the mouth and throat?

I had 4 teeth removed when I was 17 to make room for my crowded teeth. My wisdom teeth came in okay, but room was still limited. My front teeth tightened up again, though not as bad as before. Also, all of my wisdom teeth became bad cavities. The first one broke over 10 years ago. It was just too hard to brush effectively back behind them as there was no space.

Are you going to tell me with a straight face that if I lose weight, my jaw will grow and allow more room for my teeth? I think you are assuming that sleep apnea has only one cause - fat in the neck area. There are lots of skinny people with sleep apnea. One friend of mine has worse sleep apnea than I do, and she is very skinny. And she also has problems swallowing pills. She is worse than me and actually chews most pills. I cut mine or ask for a liquid.

I have already explained that my asthma was actually worse when I was exercising. Back in college, I was walking 6 miles or more per day, and working on my feet as well. I actually failed all my lung capacity tests. It doesn't matter when or where. Good day, add medication, etc. My lung capacity is below normal, and my numbers get worse the more you make me try. My doctor determined that my airway is 30% smaller than typical for my size. This is my anatomy. My airway is never going to get any wider.

Todzo wrote: Exercise is involved in all kinds of cellular signaling including gene activation.

Look at the chins of athletes!!

Being an athlete does not cause the jaw to grow. What you are observing is a selection process.

People with underdeveloped jaws have small airways. Small airways make it difficult to take in enough oxygen to be a highly competitive athlete. That is the selection process - athletes with underdeveloped jaws are weeded out from high levels of competition.

In my case, getting rid of weight DID have a major effect on my apnea. I was at 295lbs during my first year of using my "sleep machine". I was frustrated being tied to it each and every night. I slept well with it AFTER I found the correct pressue/flow and mask. To me the mask was key to comfort. I finally got fitted with a sleep pillow with hose going over my head. I hooked the hose on the head board of the bed to keep the hose high and out of the way. Slept great.On my back/side, it worked great. But how could I get rid of the weight? I resorted to having a lapband installed. There again, it was my "silver bullet"! Dropped down to 235lbs. I do not have to use the Sleep machine anymore. My Dr. suggested I use POSITIONAL THERAPY to treat the MILD APNEA I now use Pillows and sleeping on my side has now been beneficial. And now the Apnea has been minimal enough to sleep through the night.
What Im saying is, EVERYBODY is different. And if getting rid of the machinery is important to you. Then maybe other options could be tried to help the WHOLE situation, not just one aspect of a single diagnosis.

Wallaceconway wrote: And now the Apnea has been minimal enough to sleep through the night.

Do you know what your AHI is now and if so, how do you know?