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Rise wrote:PS: for a permanent set up, use dedicated battery terminal connectors and protect them with petroleum jelly. Alligator clips are a relatively high resistance connection and will waste some of your battery capacity, but again, if you need it now and it's what you have, hook it up and don't worry about it)

Since the current for a CPAP is low, the resistance of a battery clip doesn't hurt you as much, but there would be some loss.

Be sure that however you hook to the battery, there is a fuse in the battery leads very close to the battery terminal. Batteries can supply a lot of current into a short circuit, so the fire risk is high if you have an unfused cord connected to the battery.

Be sure if you buy a battery clip to cigarette lighter adapter, it has a fuse close to the battery. Some do, some don't.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to undo one side of the battery clips when you're not using the battery.

I know this sounds complicated. It's not really all that complicated.

People keep bringing up different or better ways to do this. Or argue about "minor" issues.

All this is good information, but don't get worried about it. There are lots of different ways to do this. It doesn't have to be complicated.

Get one of the configurations that works for your machine. The minor details won't matter for a few days.

Whatever backup power source you have will have a limited lifetime. If it doesn't last until the power comes back, you will have to handle it, but at least you didn't have to go out hunting power during the height of the storm. Find another power source, figure out a way to recharge, or go somewhere with power.

BATTERY ELECTROLYTE FUMES

The problem with those 12 volt DC batteries is that they emit toxic fumes from the electrolyte inside, while running, and especially during charging.
So placing the battery, with or without the box, near the XPAP could be a health hazard.
Placing the Battery and the Inerter or Converter inside an insulated box on the porch and running a standard 112 volt AC three prongs exention cord to the XPAP in the bedroom could be a solution. Do the charging also while the battery is outside and well ventilated. If the extension cord is longer than 50' then all the components need to be a bit on the higher ratings.


The fumes produced during Equalization can be very destructive to fabric and upholstery if the batteries are located in the living area of a boat. The area needs to be well ventilated.

Source:

http://www.emarineinc.com/pages/Batteries-101.html

p.s. sorry Archangel about bringing up this issue.

avi123 wrote:BATTERY ELECTROLYTE FUMES

The problem with those 12 volt DC batteries is that they emit toxic fumes from the electrolyte inside, while running, and especially during charging.
So placing the battery, with or without the box, near the XPAP could be a health hazard.
Placing the Battery and the Inerter or Converter inside an insulated box on the porch and running a standard AC three prongs exention cord to the XPAP in the bedroom could be a solution. Do the charging also while the battery is outside and well ventilated.


The fumes produced during Equalization can be very destructive to fabric and upholstery if the batteries are located in the living area of a boat. The area needs to be well ventilated.

Source:

http://www.emarineinc.com/pages/Batteries-101.html

Avi
I have been using my battery set up in my motorhome and in my bedroom for 2 1/2 years now....I'm still alive and kicking and have NOt been overcome by fumes. When i have to use it, it sits right beside my bed...never have I had any fumes, even in my motorhome when we had a severe storm and I did not open my window, as the wind was howling too bad. If you take a look at any device, there will be a warning somewhere on it...just to keep the law suits away .

I use an AGM battery and don't worry about fumes.

avi123 wrote:BATTERY ELECTROLYTE FUMES

The problem with those 12 volt DC batteries is that they emit toxic fumes from the electrolyte inside, while running, and especially during charging.
So placing the battery, with or without the box, near the XPAP could be a health hazard.
Placing the Battery and the Inerter or Converter inside an insulated box on the porch and running a standard 112 volt AC three prongs exention cord to the XPAP in the bedroom could be a solution. Do the charging also while the battery is outside and well ventilated. If the extension cord is longer than 50' then all the components need to be a bit on the higher ratings.


The fumes produced during Equalization can be very destructive to fabric and upholstery if the batteries are located in the living area of a boat. The area needs to be well ventilated.

Source:

http://www.emarineinc.com/pages/Batteries-101.html

p.s. sorry Archangel about bringing up this issue.

I'm sorry you brought it up because you're absolutely, unequivocally, 100% wrong.

The emarine quote is about a process called "Equalization." You'll never equalize a battery used in the home. It requires specialized equipment and any charger you are likely to have in the home won't do equalization.

Unless you have some kind of monster battery charger, you won't be producing any significant fumes from your battery. If the battery were producing fumes, it would quickly use up the water and acid in the battery, and your battery would be dead within a few weeks. Fumes are matter. The matter fumes are made from have to come from somewhere.

If you aren't rapidly boiling away the water in your battery, you can't produce hydrogen fast enough to matter unless you've sealed your battery in a big ziploc bag or something. It takes a lot of amps for a lot of hours to produce much hydrogen from a battery. You simply can't supply enough electricity to a battery in the normal home setting fast enough to matter.

squid13 wrote:I use an AGM battery and don't worry about fumes.

AGM batteries produce fumes exactly the same way a lead acid battery does. AGM batteries have a sealed case and some chemicals to recombine any hydrogen and oxygen produced. They can only handle a very small rate of hydrogen production. If you're producing hydrogen faster than that, the battery will vent and release the excess hydrogen. Hydrogen is non-toxic and is only dangerous if you get a high concentration in the room.

If an AGM battery is producing some kind of fumes besides hydrogen and oxygen, it will build up in the case until the battery vents.

AGM batteries are no safer than unsealed batteries in terms of fumes. They might even be more dangerous because they will release the fumes all at once when they vent, instead of as a small, steady stream.

I think AGM batteries are a lot safer that wet lead acid batteries. http://www.firststartbatteries.com.au/faq.html

squid13 wrote:I think AGM batteries are a lot safer that wet lead acid batteries. http://www.firststartbatteries.com.au/faq.html

A bunch of half truths from someone who sells AGM batteries.

They are not completely sealed. All AGM batteries have a vent in case pressure builds up inside the case. If they are producing hydrogen too fast, they will still vent hydrogen or any other fumes they produce.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA_battery

You do not have to add water unless you overcharge them or otherwise produce hydrogen fast enough that it has to vent. When that happens, you lose the water, but don't have any way to add the water back. In this case, you have to throw the battery away instead of refilling it.

However, AGM is more convenient due to the nonspill. A well made deep cycle battery, whether AGM, Gel Cell, or unsealed will work much better in a deep discharge situation.

I WOULD always choose an AGM over an unsealed battery or Gel Cell given the same price, availability, and capacity. I just wish people would quit overstating their advantages.

What about this Lithium Ion Battery for my S9 Autoset to run at a pressure of up to
14 cm, during power outage? I am ready to forgo the humidifier during this time.




Link:

http://www.cpapxchange.com/travel-cpap- ... esmed.html

Specifications

Compatibility •The Lightweight Travel Battery Pack is compatible with any CPAP/BiPAP that is DC Power Capable. This includes most machines from ResMed, Respironics, Covidien, Puritan Bennett, DeVilbiss, AEIOmed, Somnetics, etc. Some machines, like those from Fisher & Paykel, are not designed for use with DC Power. In such cases a Power Inverter -- like the Tripp Lite Power Inverter available on this site -- can be used to connect the battery pack to the CPAP/BiPAP using a standard AC (wall) cord.

Average Run Times •Run times will vary depending on the age of your machine as well as machine settings. Run times for most CPAP machines average between 18-24 hours at 6CM, 12-18 hours at 10CM, and 6-12 hours at 14CM.

Battery Specifications
•Weight: Just 2 lbs!
•Type: Lithium Ion Battery (9.7 ELC / Equivalent Lithium Content)
•Warranty: 6-Month Manufacturer's Warranty
•Life: Rated 400-500 Cycles
•Output Current: 7.8 Amp hours
•Output Voltage: 12 volts
Recharger Specifications
•Charging Time: 5-Hour average from fully drained
•Charging Indicator: Two red lights on the power supply indicate the battery is charging. One red and one green light on the power supply indicates the battery is fully charged.
•Universal Power Supply: Input Range 100-240 V, 50-60 Hz

How much? $$?

Lizistired wrote:How much? $$?

It looks like it's $319.95.

Here I see a price of $319.95 for a Travel Package for Resmed machines:

http://www.cpapxchange.com/travel-cpap- ... esmed.html

For this application I see the specs as:

Battery Specifications
•Weight: Just 2 lbs!
•Type: Lithium Ion Battery (9.7 ELC / Equivalent Lithium Content)
•Warranty: 6-Month Manufacturer's Warranty
•Life: Rated 400-500 Cycles
•Output Current: 7.8 Amp hours {I think that this is an error and should be 7.8 Amp}
{it could be 7.8 AmpHours which is ten times as small as an auto battery of 78 AmpHours suggested by ResMed for an S9Autoset + H5i + Climate control (EPR =3, Climate Control setting of 27 C, about 80 F) and air pressure of 20 cm. In this case the current draw is 6.48 Amps, meaning that the Travel Pack would be too small. Only for about one hour. B/c of it an S9 Autoset without H5i and without Climate Control would draw only 1.32 Amps for 20 cm air pressure or 0.98 Amps for 12 cm pressure, and would allow about 6 to 7 hours of sleep before the need for recharging.}
•Output Voltage: 12 volts
********************************

So the output from the Lithium Ion battery is 7.8 amps x 12 volts = 93.6 VA (volt ampers)

In this ResMed Battery guide, pg 12:

http://www.resmed.com/us/assets/documen ... lo_eng.pdf

I see that for an S9 Autoset + H5i + Climate Control (EPR setting of 3, Climate Control setting of 27 degree C , about 80 F) for air pressure of 20 cm, the current draw from a 12 volt DC is: 6.48 amps. Multiplying the two 12 x 6.48 = 77.76 VA.

It means that the Lithium Ion package could handle this load.

p.s. I am still looking for a cable to connect the Travel Package directly to the S9 Autoset flow generator (instead of the 90 W AC Adapter, the "Brick".)
Re edit: it's included in the package.


Also see customers comments:

http://www.cpapxchange.com/travel-cpap- ... ml#reviews

Batteries for CPAP are always a compromise. Any system has its advantages and disadvantages.

That looks like a nice package. It could be worthwhile to have.

Here are the potential cons I see.

Cost.

I am suspicious about the number of hours you'd get on any battery. Especially with the confusion about whether it's 7.8 Amp Hours or 7.8 Amps.

However, even if you get a few hours, it will get you through a lot of outages.

I'm always a little nervous about reliability and safety of Lithium Ion batteries. They're really great unless you have problems.

They have a tendency to be working fine one day and to be absolutely dead the next day because the protective circuitry that keeps them from bursting into flame has triggered and disabled the battery permanently. Even well made lithium ion battery packs from big name manufacturers often turn up dead one morning with no warning. This is especially a problem when you have a battery that you let sit unused for months at a time.

I'm also concerned about fire risk when a lithium ion battery pack isn't put together by a very well known company. Even Sony made some laptop batteries with "bursting into flame" problems a few years back. That supplier is a reputable company, but is the actual manufacturer of that battery pack really good about making a safe charging circuit within a battery pack?

I would STRONGLY warn anyone to only charge a lithium battery pack with the original manufacturer's charger. The fact that you charge that battery through the cigarette lighter plug makes me nervous that someone might use the wrong power source to charge it.

If you ever have a fire in a lithium battery pack (or any battery), get away and don't breathe the fumes. Lithium batteries in particular may produce some nasty fumes.

TSA about Lithium-Ion batteries:


http://www.tsa.gov/traveler-information ... nd-devices

Excerpt:

Lithium Batteries: Safety and Security

Lithium-ion batteries, often found in laptop computers, differ from primary lithium batteries, which are often used in cameras. Some newer AA-size batteries are also primary lithium.

While there is no explosion hazard associated with either kind of battery, the Federal Aviation Administration has studied fire hazards associated with both primary and lithium-ion cells, and their extensive research is publicly available. As a result of this research, the FAA no longer allows large, palletized shipments of these batteries to be transported as cargo on passenger aircraft.

The research also shows that an explosion will not result from shorting or damaging either lithium-ion or primary lithium batteries. Both are, however, extremely flammable. Primary lithium batteries cannot be extinguished with firefighting agents normally carried on aircraft, whereas lithium-ion batteries are easily extinguished by most common extinguishing agents, including those carried on board commercial aircraft.

TSA has and will continue to work closely with the FAA on potential aviation safety and security issues, and TSA security officers are thoroughly and continually trained to find explosive threats. TSA does not have plans to change security regulations for electronic devices powered by lithium batteries.

avi123 wrote:TSA about Lithium-Ion batteries:
lithium-ion batteries are easily extinguished by most common extinguishing agents

You still want to run like hell because the fumes can be very nasty, with some health effects that don't show up for several hours.

Unfortunately, you can't run away if the aircraft is in flight, so there's emphasis on getting someone to try to extinguish the battery.

Some FAA training video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS6KA_Si-m8