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Daisy004 wrote:Does Sleep Debt exist you think?

It certainly does, but its a relatively short cycle thing (over a few days).

The sort of thing casually referred to as sleep debt by many here is actually something else, and is usually part of the adjustment that some users have in settling into to xPAP treatment.

For a few users resolving their OSA sleep disordered breathing issue just lets some other co-existing sleep disorder, that has been largely masked by the symptoms associated with OSA, emerge from the shadows. That will need to be addressed with its own specific treatment approach.

xPAP isn't a magic bullet for all sleep problems, its just addresses OSA.

Cheers,

Bill

Something happens to many new CPAPers that acts like sleep debt. You may be excessively sleepy, sleep a long time, and be tired for the first few days or weeks.

I speculate that it's a little more like drug withdrawal. Your body has adjusted to apnea and takes a while to get back in balance.

Whether that's the right cause or not, something happens to a lot of new CPAPers.

It would be nice if someone did a good study on new CPAPers and figured out what happens to cause this. I suspect it's a common cause of CPAP failure, and knowledge would help the success rate.

Does it really exist?
Oh Hell Yes!

Night before last the aliens turned off my S9 and I slept with my mask on and no pressure for 3-6 hours. I've lost 2 days. No joke, I haven't been able to function. I don't know what you brain does while you are sleeping, but it is very important!
When I started cpap 2 years ago, I noticed a difference immediatly. At about 9am I wanted to go back to bed.
I could, so I did.
That lasted about 2 weeks and then the desire subsided.
I think it was because my brain/body knew it was good/safe to sleep.
After 6 months, sleep without it for a night. You will know why you are a hosehead,

The term "sleep debt" may not be the best descriptive of all that is going on when a person starting CPAP wants a lot of sleep. I don't think many argue with the concept of sleeping in after a hard week with not enough sleep, and may refer to it as "catching up" and the idea of sleep debt is not so different. Where that descriptive falls short is that payback is not a 1:1 ratio. If that were the case some of us would be paying it back for years. I do know that when I first started to get a bit of real quality sleep, I craved more and more of it. In my mind in the beginning that was my body saying, "You owe me!" At some point it wasn't about sleep for the sake of sleep. It was about sleep for the sake of healing and restoration. My entire being had been though years of torture and abuse that goes with sleep disorders, especially sleep apnea, and recovery from any trauma takes some time. Our degree and type of damage done is so varied, I wouldn't begin to expect anyone's experience to have to mimic mine for me to give it validity.

Because I had other things going on besides the OSA, my journey was prolonged. While I know it can take time and one may very well just need some time and therapeutic treatment to get past this phase, I shudder to think how many just keep waiting for it to get better when something else needed addressed, whether in their OSA treatment, other sleep disorders, or other medical problems. So hard to know.

I don't know about sleep debt, but REM rebound is a definite phenomena. If you haven't been getting enough REM and suddenly have the opportunity for me, you will spend more time in REM and hence the perception of more dreaming.

BlackSpinner wrote:It really depends on what is meant by "Sleep debt".

For the first month or two I slept like the dead for 10-12 hours each night. Was it catching up on sleep? probably not. As I slept my whole attitude changed, I slowly recovered a lot of cognitive abilities I used to have, my skin changed. All sort of aches and pains disappeared and I got energy. By about 6 months in I was sleeping 6.5 -7 hours only.

Do "Sleep debt" or intense active healing at night?

I would say you made a good start on proving "long-term sleep debt" really does exist and you had been suffering from it and thankfully began to recover -> "As I slept my whole attitude changed, I slowly recovered a lot of cognitive abilities I used to have, my skin changed. All sort of aches and pains disappeared and I got energy."

It did for me -- I started on Auto CPAP in 2007 (I think)....
For about the first 3-4 months after I started I slept 10-12 hours every night -- prior to that if I got 6 hours I was happy but in those 6 hours who knows how much rest I got due to OSA....
I can say that after over 5 years, I feel a whole lot better - the only time I've been without was a 6 day stretch I spent in the ICU, didn't have my own machine (since I was alone, there was no one to bring it to me), and the RT in the hospital was a moron. He didn't know how to set up a Bi-PAP machine for a range...."It only has one pressure"....AND the machine was the size of a microwave clearly labeled "Bi-PAP"....Dunno how he got the job..
cheers
goose

Yes, Daisy004, "Sleep Debt" does exist. as certainly as love and generositl. and devotion exist, ...
(sorry, couldn't help that)

The sleep debt idea is from the work by William Dement in the report Wake up America(and maybe others, elsewhere) found that:
Missing 3 hours of sleep in one night has the same performance decrement as the legal limit of alcohol. It takes 2 days to 2 weeks of good (sated) sleep to fully recover.

So, if a young otherwise healthy person does an all-nighter and then gets several nights of good sleep, they're good to go.

But for those with obstructive apnea, extended sleep disruption, environmental factors like high (combat) stress, bad attitudes to begin with, are on the really long end of the 2 week curve, ....and especially with the ravages of old age (Ahem) it will take longer, ...maybe never.

And, Daisy004, you have to believe that it's going to get better.

I can't imagine how you could sleep through no pressure for any length of time. I just started last week, with my minimum pressure set to 4, and I had trouble not freaking out that I was suffocating. I've since up my pressure to 5, and I'm better. No pressure would surely wake me with a start.

I'm on Day 9, and slept 11:30-8:30, and then 9:30 to 11:00. I feel like I am catching up. My rest is very interrupted by leaks and perceived leaks, adjustments, etc. For the cat nap, I actually had a dream and slept solidly for the hour and a half. Yeah me.

Lizistired wrote:Does it really exist?
Oh Hell Yes!

Night before last the aliens turned off my S9 and I slept with my mask on and no pressure for 3-6 hours. I've lost 2 days. No joke, I haven't been able to function. I don't know what you brain does while you are sleeping, but it is very important!
When I started cpap 2 years ago, I noticed a difference immediatly. At about 9am I wanted to go back to bed.
I could, so I did.
That lasted about 2 weeks and then the desire subsided.
I think it was because my brain/body knew it was good/safe to sleep.
After 6 months, sleep without it for a night. You will know why you are a hosehead,

My girlfriend (whom disagrees with me about everything anyhow) doesn't think so.

Just like what's said on the Internet, it must be true then.

Sleep debt has to be a myth.

Sure doesn't feel like it though come some weekends...

The word "debt" in the phrase "sleep debt" is mostly a metaphor. It is sometimes used to describe the effect(s) of a loss of sleep loss on future sleep or future actions. Thought of that way, it may be odd to have a postition on whether the metaphor "exists." It is a way to describe something, or many things, that happen when sleep is "lost." Although, that too can be considered a metaphor, since sleep is not so much misplaced and then later "found." It may be similar with the phrase "sleep pressure."

Whether one likes the metaphor or not, the effects of sleep loss on human functions are still being studied around the world in various ways:

http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/36039/In ... humans.pdf

It appears that SWS may have a pressure/debt/rebound/recovery component, much like REM, depending on age:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0043224

My position is that if one sleeps badly for a while, one's body/brain will do its best to sleep well, if it gets a chance to. I think that can be as true long-term as it is short-term.

But as far as what the sleep pros usually mean by sleep debt in the context of long-term troubles, maybe the best definition is the following simple one:

Sleep debt may be defined as the cumulative hours of sleep loss with respect to the subject-specific daily need for sleep.

http://www.med.upenn.edu/uep/user_docum ... 1_2003.pdf

In other words, if you get less sleep than you need, you end up paying for it, one way or another.