CPAPtalk.com

Liz,
I have no problem offering both software programs as a choice and I have no problems offering SleepyHead with a disclaimer that it is Beta software and buggy but I just want to be able to point out the bugs and let other people make a decision what they want to use. That is why I ask what you found to be unreliable and/or inaccurate..
I personally know about the 95% leak numbers but I haven't seen anything else that is glaringly inaccurate and event that calculation isn't always horribly inaccurate.

So all I am asking is "what else have you found that is inaccurate or unreliable?"
You don't want to fix SleepyHead...that's fine...I still need to know what you find is inaccurate or unreliable.
Yes, the double sessions are annoying but that alone doesn't make it horribly inaccurate or unreliable IMHO.

Those extra graphs...like minute volume and respiration rate and tidal this.....I wish that they didn't even show up. People get all glassy eyed when confronted with so much information. Those particular data points are likely only going to be relevant to someone with lung issues or maybe a strong central component and there a great chance that someone with those issues likely already knows about it.

The basics of evaluating therapy are AHI, breakdown of those AHI events, leak line and/or numbers, and pressure graphs when using auto adjusting pressures and probably flow limitations and snores. Other than the 95% numbers on leak...I just haven't seen any horribly inaccurate stuff on SleepyHead.

AHI matches
Event breakdown matches
Leak line matches
Variable pressure line matches
Flow limitations match
Snores match

I prefer to offer both softwares and let people decide what they want to use. For a lot of people those items that I list as "matching"....that is completely sufficient for their needs. Heck, the AHI alone is probably good enough if the leak line doesn't show any wild prolonged excursions into large leak territory. Not everyone wants or needs to put all this stuff under a microscope. I actually don't check my data every day unless I am doing some sort of experiment. I may download it but I don't always look at it. ResScan gets a once a week download just so I don't lose the detailed stuff but I do it only in case I want to go back and look at it for some reason....like I did to find a nice nothing leak line and nothing flow limitation line to show Avi that nasal pillows can be used and people don't always have FLs with them and leak line doesn't have to be ragged.

You find ResScan easy to use but how many years have you used it?
I used to write registry code to remove bad stuff off of people's computers...I am not a computer dummy but I have not found ResScan easy to use. It was just the other day that I realized I wasn't getting flow graph data and figured out why and I have been using it since February. ResScan on my computer (and it is a new 8 GB super fast dual core computer) is horribly slow.
That is a huge annoyance for me. I doubt I am the only one to feel that way. It simply is not easy to manage and it is going to be difficult for some people.

Until I have rock solid proof that SleepyHead is "inaccurate and unreliable" I am going to continue to offer Sleepyhead as an option with the Beta buggy disclaimer along with ResScan.. It isn't my job to tell people what to do with any of this cpap stuff...my job is to only explain the options and educate on how to evaluate the options. Let them decide what they want to use or do or whatever.

So I respect your opinion but I just can't agree with it.

I use ResScan when I look at my data on computer, although I haven't done that in over a year, since the info on the display of my S8 I/II gives me enough data to satisfy me when my therapy is going well. It took me a while to get ResScan to work well, and I still can't get it to work well on some of my computers.

I've never used SH, though I may one day when I get a new blower.

All that said, I think newbies seeking help here may tend to use whichever software they get the impression that the most-prolific helpers here are most familiar with and most comfortable using and providing tech-support for. I can't blame them for that practical decision, especially when they are in a hurry. And why wouldn't they be?

I think most medical software is in a form of perpetual beta and it all can be buggy at times. Keeps the med-techie people in business!

Both are free. Both are useful. One may work better for someone or be easier for someone than the other, depending on the person, the blower, or the CPU, or some unique combination of all the above.

I think we've gone through a time when SH was stressed to help the beta along. Made sense to me, so I haven't let it bother me. But hey, that's just me.

If ResMed wanted to provide a user-friendly version of their software designed for patients, they would. They don't. So I tend to cheer for SH under my breath.

I have Sleepyhead, Resscan, Encore basic and Devilbiss Smartlink Desktop installed on my computer. I have used all programs to varying degree, but enough to become familiar with them. But my main program has been Sleepyhead ever since Mark added support for the Devilbiss Intellipap. If you are a DME/provider and have to keep records of a lot of patients, payors, doctors, CPAP machines etc. They are the right programs for the job. They do what they are supposed to do and I have no reason to badmouth them, except Encore Basic, which I don't appreciate that much.

For me as an end user, I just want to review my graphs. I love the way I can drag and drop the different graphs I want to compare around and click to zoom in and out on events. The uninteresting graphs is also very easy to get rid of. The 95% bug is something I have never taken notice of as I don't pay much attention to that value and find it rather useless. It's the graphs that matters to me, that tells me how my night was. I have maybe been lucky, but I have never seen a double session. I don't scrutinize the data for every day either, so that may also be the reason why. I have found the software to be more than reliable enough for me. I have never had any problems that simply restarting the program has not solved. This has happened maybe 5 times in the ~10 months I have been using the program. I have never lost any data or had any data corrupted.

I started out with a Devilbiss IntelliPAP before I got properly dignosed. I used that machine for 5 months before I got two (probably) malfunctioning S9 Autosets in a row. Now I have a PRS1 Auto. Without Sleepyhead, all my data would have been "lost" with each change of brand. With Sleepyhead, I can see trends and review all data from all my machines from my first night on CPAP up until today. I actually value this a lot.

Last but certainly not least is the ability to import the data from my pulseoximeter and Zeo. I find this data extremely valuable. I can see how each and every event affects my blood oxygen level and heartrate and in what sleepstage the event occured. This ability takes CPAP data to an entirely new level of usefulness, now Sleepyhead transforms all our equipment into a miniature sleeplab and all this we get for free. I showed my doctor such a report and he was very impressed

I normally don't even bother to download to the other programs anymore, Sleepyhead gives me all I want and need.

Burkebang wrote: . . . miniature sleeplab . . .

I hope Mr. Bill or Uncle Dave doesn't read that.

Maybe they won't notice.

So, nobody draw attention to those words, OK?!

I am a fan of ResScan...

I tried SleepyHead early on; before I attempted to use ResScan.
It installed properly and imported the data as expected.
When I tried to graph the datasets my labels appeared as black on black.
I had no clue what the graphs were. Posted here and received a reply from jedimark
very quickly. He said that there had been reports of this as a problem on older XP machines.
He also suggested a fix. BIG KUDOS to him for the support effort! Fix didn't work for me.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=73030&p=674837&hilit=black#p674837

I then pulled a copy of ResScan. It installed properly and imported the data as expected.
I find it very easy to use and understand the data with the graphs ResScan creates.
I find that customizing the reports is not intuitive but my octor doesn't even tailor his.
Agree that ResScan is terribly SLOW at creating reports, even on my new "very fast" laptop.

I got a new laptop a few months ago and thought I'd give SleepyHead another try.
Again, installed okay. The import resulted in lots of data duplication. Read some of the
threads here about that issue and decided to stick with ResScan. I applaud Mark's efforts
and willingness to freely share his work. That said; I don't use it anymore.

As to SleepyHead vs ResScan, even if ResScan is more complicated and it takes more time to deal with I still prefer it, many times over.

After spending 15 minutes from downloading the SD Card into my Windows 7 laptop, see what I can check:




Great, no more obstuctive events. See how many I had a year ago (i also managed to lower the pressure and
get it to be confined within the limit lines, no more "kissing" the top limit line. Psss, I think that it was getting rid of the FF F&P #431 mask
to my present set-up that did it.):



Back to last night:





One night Stats:





30 days Stats:




6 months Stats:




Cmparing SleepyHead data for the night of Oct.17, 2012:



Remarks:

1)Why do I need to click endlessly to check events?
2)The values in above Stats (and graphs) are not straight forward. You need to go to glossary to understand them.



Remarks:

1) I don't have an EPAP, so why do I see it in the Stats above?
2) Why do I need to see two traces in the pressure graph?
3) Mask Pressure (not shown), there is no such thing in most XPAPs.




Can't get Stats for the night of the Oct. 17th
Also, some values don't compare with those in Resmed machine screen
***********************************************************************************************************************

For the last 2 years I been using ResScan daily to check my treatment, of plain OSA (AHI = 45 at PSG diagnosis). I think that I have reached a point whereby my Resmed APAP setting and data are fully optimized. However, my treatment is still not fully effective. I am talking about Residual Excessive Sleepiness (RES) during the day times. It would be nice to have a sort of an XPAP combined with a simple EEG machine to diagnose those UARs, RERAs, and Flow Limitations which increase arousals and which lead to RES.

I know it that every case is different.

Here is a video from a guy who feels comfortable enough with Resscan to try to teach others:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=648GKYY ... r_embedded#!


Sleepyhead reports are pretty nice:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/56364909/Sleepy ... 012012.pdf

One thing I would like is to be able to get reports in landscape orientation, that would give more "resolution" to the printed graphs.

as a newbie of 3+ weeks, I find that Sleepyhead starts & runs faster.

The big plus for Sleepyhead is that I can import and view my progress long before ResScan gets to the point of being able to import the latest data.

so, I am using Sleepyhead as my primary source of information.

Dave

[quote="Pugsy"]Liz,
I have no problem offering both software programs as a choice and I have no problems offering SleepyHead with a disclaimer that it is Beta software and buggy but I just want to be able to point out the bugs and let other people make a decision what they want to use. That is why I ask what you found to be unreliable and/or inaccurate.
[quote]

Comment,

SleepyHead has been in Beta shape for more than two years. Mark, its programmer, has OSA and family problems. To fully debug it, might take another decade. So why push it. Newbies don't understand your explanation of the bugs in it. So you end up posting long megillas, usually, with the endings of "go see your doctor".

Those who use Resmed products are doing themselves a disservice by not using ResScan. One reason is that the nomenclature in Sleepy Head is not the same as you see in Resmed machines screens.ApAppera..................composing is kaput.

avi123 wrote: SleepyHead has been in Beta shape for more than two years.

No...not more than two years. Beta wasn't released until earlier this year...so less than a year.
The other versions were raw and Alpha versions.
SleepyHead hasn't even been around 2 years. Get your facts straight please. It was just a gleam in Mark's eye in April of 2011. Rough version May or so of 2011.
Beta the first of this year.

avi123 wrote:One reason is that the nomenclature in Sleepy Head is not the same as you see in Resmed machines screens.

Oh Really...the terms and definitions in the glossary came from the rather sporadic term definition offered in ResScan.
The only nomenclature that is not the same that might cause confusion is clear airway vs central. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand what either means. Guess it is hard for you though.

avi123 wrote:So you end up posting long megillas, usually, with the endings of "go see your doctor".

Don't worry about what I post..and what's wrong with "consult your doctor"...you used to blast me out of the water for not saying it. I can't please you no matter what I do so I simply don't care and I don't try.

The bugs that I have seen in SH are not critical to what I need to see to evaluate therapy. Annoying yes. I have yet to see a bug that would or could hugely adversely effect treatment.

Again it is NOT my job to TELL people what to do or not do. My job is to offer options and explanations and maybe toss around ideas but people are grown ups here...adults who have the right to choose what they want to do.
I would rather people learn to make their own informed decisions than spoon feed them what to do.
That's one of the reasons I make those long megillas you talk about...I am trying to explain why and what or whatever instead of a quick..."you need to do this" statement.

People come here because people aren't give adequate explanation about OSA or their treatment or their options..."just sleep 4 hours with the mask a night and you will feel like a new person." Hogwash. Education...education...education. That is what people need. They need to be made to think for themselves and learn and read. It isn't all that hard and just about anyone can do it with just a little effort on their part and some megillas on my part.

I want people to learn to think for themselves. What is wrong with that? And that includes giving them options in whatever software they want to use. Treat people like grown ups and not babies that have to be spoon fed every little morsel.

If it takes using a little easier to use software with a few minor bugs in it so that they understand what they see...then so be it.
I don't care what tools someone uses to learn with...as long as they learn.
I think most people when given the option about the softwares will simply try both and settle in on which one they like the best.
Some people like a little bit of each...so they use both.

I don't believe in treating newbies like babies that need to be spoon fed everything. I believe in treating them like adults and offering all choices and all ideas and yes..the pros and cons....and letting them decide how they want to handle things.

I repeat...other than the 95 % leak bug (and I think 90/95% numbers are not nearly the holy grail they are made out to be anyway) I have yet to see any inaccuracies in SleepyHead that could be harmful or totally invalidate the data that is given.
Show me the proof that unreliable data that could be harmful is there...I can't find it.
Annoying bugs..yes. But hey, how about just letting people decide what they want to use and leave it at that.

I repeat again....I don't care what software someone uses...I really don't. I just want people to learn about anything and everything that they can learn in regards to their therapy and any tools they use. We tell people the pros and cons to machines all the time...why is it so different to tell them the pros and cons to software choices?
For some people what SH offers is all they need and they are totally happy with what they get...for others it isn't.
Who are we to dictate what people should or should not use? Last I heard we were still a free country and free choice was something that we value. Just because you feel SH is worthless doesn't make it worthless any more than if I felt ResScan was worthless that would make ResScan worthless. It's a person opinion for god's sake...can't people have a personal opinion without you trying to force yours on someone else?

More about SleepyHead. Assuming that the two pressure graphs in APAP mode are the maximum pressure and the other trace is the max pressure less the EPR. Then how come that in the following graphs in CPAP mode with a pressure of 14 cm, the Stats show an EPAP pressure of 11 cm? Jedimark, probably took the EPR setting of the APAP mode and applied it to the CPAP mode. But, CPAP mode has no EPRs. The program sensed that something is wrong and could not show the pressure graph.

it would be awesome if ResScan ran on the Android system.

avi123 wrote:More about SleepyHead. Assuming that the two pressure graphs in APAP mode are the maximum pressure and the other trace is the max pressure less the EPR. Then how come that in the following graphs in CPAP mode with a pressure of 14 cm, the Stats show an EPAP pressure of 11 cm? Jedimark, probably took the EPR setting of the APAP mode and applied it to the CPAP mode. But, CPAP mode has no EPRs. The program sensed that something is wrong and could not show the pressure graph.

If you take a look in machine settings below the statisctics, it says EPR X3. I tested one of my S9's in CPAP mode and it certainly had EPR. What use is showing a pressuregraph when the machine is in CPAP mode? The pressure is constantly 14 on inhalation and 11 on exhalation, as shown in the statistics.

Burkebang wrote:

avi123 wrote:More about SleepyHead. Assuming that the two pressure graphs in APAP mode are the maximum pressure and the other trace is the max pressure less the EPR. Then how come that in the following graphs in CPAP mode with a pressure of 14 cm, the Stats show an EPAP pressure of 11 cm? Jedimark, probably took the EPR setting of the APAP mode and applied it to the CPAP mode. But, CPAP mode has no EPRs. The program sensed that something is wrong and could not show the pressure graph.

If you take a look in machine settings below the statisctics, it says EPR X3. I tested one of my S9's in CPAP mode and it certainly had EPR. What use is showing a pressuregraph when the machine is in CPAP mode? The pressure is constantly 14 on inhalation and 11 on exhalation, as shown in the statistics.

Reply,

Burke, but in CPAP mode there should not be different pressure for exhale than in inhale. Am I not correct? Why SH is showing an 11 cm EPAP in the Stats? Does CPAP mode change pressures?

See this from ResScan for the same night as the above in SleepyHead:




Straight line ( even if you set an EPR it does not take place):



Why SH does not show this straight line, or show two traces for IPAP and EPAP? Actuall, to be consistant with the way SH shows two traces in APAP mode, one for the max pressure and one for the max less EPR, it should show two straight lines in CPAP mode.

p.s. my machine stamps the next date on the detailed graphs, in ResScan.

Avi... CPAP mode most assuredly does offer EPR. People using the Elite use it all the timel.
Your ResScan report plainly states
EPR Full Time...pressure 14.0 and EPR set at 3
Though even your ResScan report is showing a single pressure and not the dual pressures we normally see with EPR engaged in APAP mode.

Your SH pressure image shows the same pressure line that ResScan does...that straight line at 14 that is broken up but on the SH graph it is down at the very bottom and overlaps the baseline of the graph.
For some reason your pressure numbers on the left side vertical axis are missing. Notice the numbers on the other graphs left side vertical axis.

I have a report in straight CPAP mode on my ResMed...let me go check my reports. May take me a bit of time to find it but I know for sure I used EPR of 3 in CPAP mode because I was trying to compare EPR of 3 to Bilevel with PS of 3 to see if they felt much difference.
I thought for sure I remembered seeing dual pressure lines but that was nearly a year ago and I have slept too many nights since then. Give me a bit to see if I can find mine.
I don't think I have it in ResScan though..I think that was before I installed ResScan.

Edit...I went back to my one and only night using straight CPAP with EPR of 3...My pressure line is like yours Avi...pressure line on the baseline and no numbers on the vertical axis. I don't have that night in my ResScan because it was when I was using a loaner VPAP and I didn't bother to install ResScan for a short term loaner machine and didn't buy my own machine until 2 months later.
So I don't know what ResScan would have showed.
That one night is the only night that my SH has ever had the vertical axis number go missing.
I know for a fact that EPR was engaged and working in CPAP mode. Plus I just now this minute got through testing it...but while I most assuredly felt the reduction in exhale...it didn't show on the LCD screen.
So maybe in CPAP mode EPR doesn't show up with the dual lines. Your ResScan confirms it. I have never used an Autoset and my VPAP doesn't have plain APAP mode..it has CPAP mode though.