CPAPtalk.com

Thank you, BlackS, for your comments. If being really proud of my past accomplishments makes me an idiot, I guess I am. However, the thought that government is the reason for my success is to me, hogwash. I did it in spite of the roadblocks. I guess we just have differing thoughts and ideas on individualism and the role we think governments should play on our lives. Collectivism supports political correctness. I reject it. To me, only the winners should receive rewards, as opposed to giving everyone something just so someone won't get their feelings hurt. Of course, individualism is an enemy of the leftist and certainly has no place in marxism. So I am probably an individual idiot. Thanks for the exchange. I've had nothing stimulating since I quit taping.

ChicagoGranny wrote:
Make not the mistake to believe that Paine was speaking of government and rulers. He was clear that his speaking was of society, and a free society at that, in the passage cited.

Thomas Paine's thoughts on "society" as quoted in my post and what it affords us, and why the prosperous prosper, speak for themselves.

ChicagoGranny wrote:Max, That is so very beautifully said. Odds are you did have some good teachers and travel on some good roads along the way. But so did hundreds or thousands of others have these same teachers and roads. And how many made a contribution as great as yours? Only a few strived and succeeded. Congratulations and thanks for your contribution to society. All the best to you and your wife.

Thanks. Well, when it comes to teachers... I went to private schools (which my parents paid dearly for, they didn't have much money) and my education was poor, between being whacked with rulers, map pointers, ridiculed (one reason why I get ticked when Obama cites teachers and mentors because there's some not so happy memories there). There was one teacher that did try to help me unsuccessfully, but mostly she kept saying I wasn't living up to my potential (heard that too much). I had a daily behavior report card because I was angry about how I was treated. One of my private high school (more cash from mom and dad) teachers was having sex with students in the chem lab supply room and the education was so bad that when I went to community college, I entered as a moron in math. I sat in the hall and cried when I was told I might not be able to go. Then I realized I was in this to better myself and knuckled down. I worked very hard. We paid a lot of money to those college teachers and I rewarded their sage advice with a highly valued smile, hand-shake and maybe a hug. I graduated and a nice manufacturing company took me under their wing. It's THAT company (and majorly my mom and dad) I owed a debt to, so I worked very hard for them and they in turn promoted me about every two years. I got up higher and resigned to build (oops, I didn't do that) my business and here I am.

If there is ANYONE that I owe a lot to is my mom and dad, tho they chose the wrong schools, they intended well and paid dearly. My dad's dead. My mom tears up when I give her checks, "just because". They say charity begins at home. I say repayment to society does too.

You might understand a bit better why I feel the way I do about what he said.

Thank you.

I guess you are assuming (calling) winners are the only people who strive, who work very hard, who have things to overcome that they had nothing to do with but are stuck trying to deal with. Have you read this?

It's called "First they came"

""In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."

-- by Martin Niemöller, prominent German anti-Nazi theologian and Lutheran pastor, best known as the author of the above poem.

I hope for your sake that one day you are not in a place where you need help... from anyone.

Sorry for the "too much information" above. I guess that's the Dark in Darkside coming out.

Now, "You didn't succeed in isolation" arguments are a bit of a strawman. Let me explain because I don't think it's being understood. No one is saying we thrive in isolation. The people who are miffed are so because the business they built, their INCREMENTAL contribution, is discounted. The moral of the story is that we, all of us, stand on the shoulders of giants to create our contribution. We work as a value-compensation system to each of our benefit. Through this value-add our standard of living rises. Those who have created a business, an incremental increase in value (that value is delivered *to society*, their customers), have paid back to society already, their teachers, their road workers, their mentors, their suppliers and staff, and yes, TAXES, for the value those persons in society have delivered. Obama creates the dispersion that somehow the "successful" need to pay even more to "society". The check he wants goes to him, you notice. He is using unfounded guilt for statist power (stat·ism (st t z m). n. The practice or doctrine of giving a centralized government control over economic planning and policy.)

Now, let's look at the value chain. Looking forward in the chain first: I create value and I deliver it to my customers because the value I create is worth more to my customers than it cost me. That is the way business works. YOU likely have received the benefit of my work in many of the products you use, from toilet paper to soft drinks, from more comfortable hotel stays to cheaper gasoline, even the electricity you use. I do not ask you for more for what I provided, you do not owe me, I've been compensated, thank you, when you bought those products or services. OK, that's looking forward, now backwards... I create value from staring at a blank Visual Studio software development tool on a laptop. I think. I start typing. I do magical things with symbols that come to life to create value. I paid (made a backwards contribution to society) Microsoft for that tool. It runs on an HP laptop, to whom I gave $ via Best Buy in exchange for their value. It runs on electricity that I paid to the power company. I use the internet and pay a commercial internet provider for that value. Our employees do the same magic, or perform valued services that both I and the customer (and you) receive value for, so I send that value in the form of $ from the customer to the employee. I rarely pay FedEx to deliver something for me using gov't roads, but they charge me for the gas tax they pay for the roads included in my fees. All those people in turn pay back (to society) to those persons and companies that provided value. Everyone is paid, including the government, even for the research that went into inventing TCP/IP internet protocols. Our property taxes are paid (from customer money) which goes to pay the teachers and build the schools. It goes on and on...

Now some guy gets on a podium and said I didn't build that in isolation. Right. I didn't. But I paid almost every penny I have to those who's shoulders I stand on and plenty of taxes to that podium guy as well, but he says that I need to pay more. Right or wrong, there's a problem... I have paid out most of my money to the providers, a big chunk already to the podium guy, I don't have much left to pay the personal debt I incurred building this business and my bills at home, sometimes federal income taxes already have to be financed (!) but he wants more, to him, because there is some nebulous unpaid obligation still to society. Does not pass the smell test.

Now, that said, here in the USA we have a problem. Our national debt is huge. It will have to get paid one way or another. We will have to cut spending and increase taxes, somehow, some way and that's another problem, another OT thread, or just something for us to ponder how we pay nearly $16 TRILLION... from what? Even if you seized all the assets of the 1%, it would be no where enough.

RandyJ wrote:

ChicagoGranny wrote:
Make not the mistake to believe that Paine was speaking of government and rulers. He was clear that his speaking was of society, and a free society at that, in the passage cited.

Thomas Paine's thoughts on "society" as quoted in my post and what it affords us, and why the prosperous prosper, speak for themselves.

Sorry, but I hear everyday from people who believe that government is society. They grossly misunderstand Paine.

Now, that said, here in the USA we have a problem. Our national debt is huge. It will have to get paid one way or another. We will have to cut spending and increase taxes, somehow, some way and that's another problem, another OT thread, or just something for us to ponder how we pay nearly $16 TRILLION... from what? Even if you seized all the assets of the 1%, it would be no where enough.

Most have no idea that what you state above is only the tip of the iceberg ... another timely excerpt from Mr. Orlov.

Now let's tackle a bigger dynamic system: global finance. At this point in time, all of the highly developed economies are 1. very highly indebted and 2. are either shrinking or not growing. This is not a stable situation: “Because credit is charged at interest, credit expansion is required to service previously issued credit. In order for the issued credit-money to retain its value relative to goods and services in the economy, GDP must increase commensurate with credit-money expansion.” (p. 33) The end result of this process is national default. At this time, the fact that Greece is in some stage of national default is no longer controversial. Nor does it appear likely that the problems of Spain, Italy or Ireland can be sorted out.

Nor is it likely that growth will resume. First, there is the problem with natural resources, oil foremost among them. It is too expensive to allow growth, and it can't get any cheaper because the remaining marginal resources are, well, marginal—deep water, tar sands, shale oil and other dregs—and are expensive to produce. Second, there is a problem with levels of debt: too high a level of debt chokes off economic growth. Third, we are at a point now where it is not possible to stimulate growth: the latest figures are that it takes a 2.3-fold increase in debt to produce one unit of GDP growth. We have achieved diminishing returns with regard to growth: we need to dig a bigger hole in which to put all this debt, and are willing to go deeper into debt to do it, but no matter how fast we dig, the debt just keeps piling up next to the hole. The politicians still talk about growth, but it's a race to nowhere.

The Joy of National Default

MaxDarkside wrote: No one is saying we thrive in isolation.

It is a misunderstanding held by the left that individualism is a dog-eat-dog world of conflict and competition. To the contrary, individualism and especially capitalism are made up of 10% competition and 90% cooperation.

Max, think about all the hours you spend working. Most will find only 10% of their time is focused on the competition. 90% is focused on cooperation. That is cooperation with employees, suppliers, investors, lenders, landlords, etc.

That is why individualism and capitalism bring peace and not strife.

ChicagoGranny wrote:

RandyJ wrote:

ChicagoGranny wrote:
Make not the mistake to believe that Paine was speaking of government and rulers. He was clear that his speaking was of society, and a free society at that, in the passage cited.

Thomas Paine's thoughts on "society" as quoted in my post and what it affords us, and why the prosperous prosper, speak for themselves.

Sorry, but I hear everyday from people who believe that government is society. They grossly misunderstand Paine.

The problem is that Paine lived in a time near the start of the industrial revolution ... we live at its end. People fail to realize that an economy whether from capitalism or socialism is always limited by the real fact that it exists on a planet with finite resources.

ChicagoGranny wrote:

MaxDarkside wrote: No one is saying we thrive in isolation.

It is a misunderstanding held by the left that individualism is a dog-eat-dog world of conflict and competition. To the contrary, individualism and especially capitalism are made up of 10% competition and 90% cooperation.
Max, think about all the hours you spend working. Most will find only 10% of their time is focused on the competition. 90% is focused on cooperation. That is cooperation with employees, suppliers, investors, lenders, landlords, etc.
That is why individualism and capitalism bring peace and not strife.

Well, you are quite right. In fact, it is 100% cooperation with other value providers, those who provide me value (and I pay in return), and with the customers, working out (calculating, discussing) the value they receive, negotiating contracts on compensation I receive in return for that value and the rest of the time is spent creating value. I don't even pay much attention to the "competition", but our dancing symbols are quite special and unique, the value proposition so good, what little competition there is immediately loses.

One of the problems in our "society" is that the schools do not teach how to "create value" and how this all works. It took me a while to learn it, on my own, partly taught / mentored to me by a sales VP of ours (who I paid and do not owe). Once you understand how this works, regardless of the means of creating value, it just makes things a lot easier. That's the flaw with the "everybody works hard". If you swim upstream in the river of life, you work hard and go no where. If you understand how nature works, you work a little, WISELY, and go great distances.

SMenasco wrote:Thank you, BlackS, for your comments. If being really proud of my past accomplishments makes me an idiot, I guess I am. However, the thought that government is the reason for my success is to me, hogwash. I did it in spite of the roadblocks. I guess we just have differing thoughts and ideas on individualism and the role we think governments should play on our lives. Collectivism supports political correctness. I reject it. To me, only the winners should receive rewards, as opposed to giving everyone something just so someone won't get their feelings hurt. Of course, individualism is an enemy of the leftist and certainly has no place in marxism. So I am probably an individual idiot. Thanks for the exchange. I've had nothing stimulating since I quit taping.

Outstanding!

Some of this argument is like the well known passage called "Footprints." Most of us think we are walking alone through the sand because we perceive only one set of footprints; we can't look beyond ourselves to realize that we were being carried.

RandyJ wrote:Some of this argument is like the well known passage called "Footprints." Most of us think we are walking alone through the sand because we perceive only one set of footprints; we can't look beyond ourselves to realize that we were being carried.

Actually, that fits PERFECTLY with what I've been saying above, about not succeeding in isolation, but standing on the shoulders of giants and compensating those giants already for allowing us to do so.

Wonder how well the business would have done without the government built road to get customers to it?

Sloop wrote: