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avi123 wrote:The Provent device is nothing more than a simple PEEP creator...

No it's not. Provent is a resistor. When Flow = 0 then Pressure = 0.

avi123 wrote:I could create a PEEP in a regular mask (by) using a ventless mask and installing a PEEP valve at the inlet to the mask.

No you can't. PEEP valves are one-way. You cannot inhale thru a PEEP valve.

deltadave wrote:

avi123 wrote:The Provent device is nothing more than a simple PEEP creator...

No it's not. Provent is a resistor. When Flow = 0 then Pressure = 0.

avi123 wrote:I could create a PEEP in a regular mask (by) using a ventless mask and installing a PEEP valve at the inlet to the mask.

No you can't. PEEP valves are one-way. You cannot inhale thru a PEEP valve.

Reply,

If Provent is a resistor, how do you create PEEP without a resistor? Don't they both use mechanical friction devices that reduce the air pressure and flow by turning the energy lost into heat?

As to mounting PEEP valves while CPAPing I don't need the valve to be two ways because I get inhalation flow via the XPAP flow generator.

Dr David Rapoport, knowing about the value of PEEP, that was used in respiration therapy, to treat certain patients, years before he became a Doctor,, jumped on the Provent idea to make some more money.

avi123 wrote: Don't they both use mechanical friction devices that reduce the air pressure and flow by turning the energy lost into heat?

Heat?!

There is a mesh/screen-like section that goes over the nostril, with a large pin hole in it. Behind that is like a trap door that immediately opens on inhale and shuts on exhale. So on inhale you get air through a larger trap door, and on exhale you exhale air through the pinhole. That leads to a normal inhale and a slow, prolonged exhale. You do feel that your lungs are expanding, and it does sometimes feel as if the next inhale comes before the exhale is over.

Dr David Rapoport, knowing about the value of PEEP, that was used in respiration therapy, to treat certain patients, years before he became a Doctor,, jumped on the Provent idea to make some more money.

What do you know about his motives?! In any case, I am grateful to him and all others who are researching solutions for OSA.

SleepingUgly wrote:

avi123 wrote: Don't they both use mechanical friction devices that reduce the air pressure and flow by turning the energy lost into heat?

Heat?!

There is a mesh/screen-like section that goes over the nostril, with a large pin hole in it. Behind that is like a trap door that immediately opens on inhale and shuts on exhale. So on inhale you get air through a larger trap door, and on exhale you exhale air through the pinhole. That leads to a normal inhale and a slow, prolonged exhale. You do feel that your lungs are expanding, and it does sometimes feel as if the next inhale comes before the exhale is over.

Dr David Rapoport, knowing about the value of PEEP, that was used in respiration therapy, to treat certain patients, years before he became a Doctor,, jumped on the Provent idea to make some more money.

What do you know about his motives?! In any case, I am grateful to him and all others who are researching solutions for OSA.

Reply to

As I said before the Provent effects respiration similar to the PEEP method which is beneficial only for certain respiration ailments. But Provent is much simpler.

See here how PEEPS work:

http://www.ccmtutorials.com/rs/PEEP/page5.htm

There is a mesh/screen-like section that goes over the nostril, with a large pin hole in it. Behind that is like a trap door that immediately opens on inhale and shuts on exhale. So on inhale you get air through a larger trap door, and on exhale you exhale air through the pinhole. That leads to a normal inhale and a slow, prolonged exhale. You do feel that your lungs are expanding, and it does sometimes feel as if the next inhale comes before the exhale is over.

The pin hole forces the expired air to go thru it and and build the pressure up. This expands the lungs and keeps it expanded till the next inhalation cycle, besides raising the CO2 level in the blood. A PEEP valve does the same.

avi123 wrote:If Provent is a resistor, how do you create PEEP without a resistor?

To the uneducated layperson, it would seem that Provent and "PEEP" follow the same princples. However, this is not so.

PEEP/CPAP/EPAP by definition have fixed Pressure regardless of Flow or Resistance. Provent has fixed Resistance, thereby resulting in Pressure varying in response to Flow.

Hence, the major drawback of Provent-- the Pressure is subject to wide variability.

avi123 wrote:If Provent is a resistor, how do you create PEEP without a resistor? Don't they both use mechanical friction devices that reduce the air pressure and flow by turning the energy lost into heat?

Absolutely!

Clearly, one must be vigilant of this important scientific concept, and the obvious dangers associated with combining these types of therapy.

Indeed, this was tragically seen when an unsuspecting, uninformed patient used both PEEP and Provent (CAUTION: May be too intense for younger viewers!)

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avi123 wrote:As to mounting PEEP valves while CPAPing I don't need the valve to be two ways because I get inhalation flow via the XPAP flow generator.

UFB.

I need a dictionary for DelatDave's acronyms. I just know I am missing something often because I don't have a clue sometimes.

Pugsy wrote:I need a dictionary for DelatDave's acronyms. I just know I am missing something often because I don't have a clue sometimes.

I think UFB stands for un-f***ing believable, but I'm not sure.

SleepingUgly wrote:
I think UFB stands for un-f***ing believable, but I'm not sure.

Yep....where was my brain..I bet you are correct. Thanks.

deltadave wrote: When Flow = 0 then Pressure = 0.

Is that true even with all the breath stacking and lung expansion/throat pulling that Dr. Rapoport talks about in his video?

deltadave wrote:

avi123 wrote:If Provent is a resistor, how do you create PEEP without a resistor?

To the uneducated layperson, it would seem that Provent and "PEEP" follow the same princples. However, this is not so.

PEEP/CPAP/EPAP by definition have fixed Pressure regardless of Flow or Resistance. Provent has fixed Resistance, thereby resulting in Pressure varying in response to Flow.

Hence, the major drawback of Provent-- the Pressure is subject to wide variability.

Comment,

Are you the same Dave pictured with Rested Gal in one of her online links to a photo where you both are watching the monitors in a sleep lab? If yes, can I post the photo here?

UFB = You f***ing bastard.

What you wrote above does not make sense. You posted: Provent has fixed Resistance, thereby resulting in Pressure varying in response to Flow.

When you write Pressure, where do you measure it? What Pressure, and where?

If you convert the word air-Pressure to electrical voltage and the air-flow to electrical current then how could the electrical voltage be varied in response to the current when the current is passing thru an electrical resistance? May be you're talking about EMF (Electro Motoric Force)?

In a CPAP the air-Pressure is created and maintained by the speed of the blower, and measured at the outlet of the flow generator (the blower housing).

deltadave wrote:

avi123 wrote:As to mounting PEEP valves while CPAPing I don't need the valve to be two ways because I get inhalation flow via the XPAP flow generator.

UFB.

Dave, if you don't stop shaking your head like that it's going to fall off!

SleepingUgly wrote:

deltadave wrote: When Flow = 0 then Pressure = 0.

Is that true even with all the breath stacking and lung expansion/throat pulling that Dr. Rapoport talks about in his video?

By definition, if one is "breath-stacking", exhalation was still occurring when the ensuing inhalation occurred, so Flowexpiratory did not = 0.

Interestingly, this concept, when it occurs during Mechanical Ventilation, is known as "AutoPEEP".

As previously noted, a relatively high respiratory rate may be critical to create this phenomenon.

Deterioration of waveform during Provent therapy, apparently from slowed respiratory rate and loss of increased FRC:

avi123 wrote:...can I post the photo here?

You're really starting to creep me out. Are you gay (Not that there's anything wrong with that!)?

avi123 wrote:What you wrote above does not make sense. You posted: Provent has fixed Resistance, thereby resulting in Pressure varying in response to Flow.

Fifth Grade Math: