CPAPtalk.com

Slartybartfast wrote:Dan, I expect you already know that's what a UPS is really for. Protecting computers against poor unfiltered power, power spikes, brownouts and power interruptions. Outside of feeding your machine DC from a battery, the power from a UPS is about as clean as it's going to get.

I have to pay for every cent of my CPAP supplies out of my own sweaty pocket, machine mask, everything. Yes, I want to protect the machine from harmful power problems first and foremost! Your idea is great, thanks so much for sharing it!

I want one too. I think this is the best idea. I just haven't come across a dead UPS to use! Where is a good place to look?
We have a local electronics recycle center. I guess I should try there. Other suggestions?

Slartybartfast wrote:The power from a UPS is about as clean as it's going to get.

Well, except that it's a modified sine wave (MSW), not a true sine wave.

MSW can damage or cause poor operation on quite a few devices. For instance, ResMed says MSW may damage an S8 humidifiers.

For many electronic devices, an MSW waveform acts like a lower than normal voltage because of the way their power supply converts AC to DC.

S9 and PRS1 CPAP will take MSW even with humidifiers, as will many other CPAP blowers. Heated humidifiers are more tricky.

archangle wrote:

Slartybartfast wrote:The power from a UPS is about as clean as it's going to get.

Well, except that it's a modified sine wave (MSW), not a true sine wave.

MSW can damage or cause poor operation on quite a few devices. For instance, ResMed says MSW may damage an S8 humidifiers.

For many electronic devices, an MSW waveform acts like a lower than normal voltage because of the way their power supply converts AC to DC.

S9 and PRS1 CPAP will take MSW even with humidifiers, as will many other CPAP blowers. Heated humidifiers are more tricky.

Just found this thread.

I had thought of using a working but unused UPS for just such a purpose (after replacing the battery, of course).

The inverter problem you mentioned was the only reason I never did it yet.

Perhaps, somehow, the ResMed converter could be used instead of the UPS inverter?
But, that may defeat the purpose (less cost) of using the UPS to begin with?

StuUnderPressure wrote:

archangle wrote:

Slartybartfast wrote:The power from a UPS is about as clean as it's going to get.

Well, except that it's a modified sine wave (MSW), not a true sine wave.

MSW can damage or cause poor operation on quite a few devices. For instance, ResMed says MSW may damage an S8 humidifiers.

For many electronic devices, an MSW waveform acts like a lower than normal voltage because of the way their power supply converts AC to DC.

S9 and PRS1 CPAP will take MSW even with humidifiers, as will many other CPAP blowers. Heated humidifiers are more tricky.

Just found this thread.

I had thought of using a working but unused UPS for just such a purpose (after replacing the battery, of course).

The inverter problem you mentioned was the only reason I never did it yet.

Perhaps, somehow, the ResMed converter could be used instead of the UPS inverter?
But, that may defeat the purpose (less cost) of using the UPS to begin with?

Comment,

As I understand it, also the type of the XPAP used and its wattage count. As to a converter, I was thinking of using a DC-12 volt converter for my S9 Autoset machine. The converter as shown on pg 8 in this report would plug onto the 12 V DC outlet of the Diehard model 1150 JumpStarter, that I have purchased for about $100, and thus protect the battery in the JumpStarter from being fully discharged and also protect my XPAP if the JumpStarter 12 v DC outlet voltage drops below 10.5 V.

http://www.resmed.com/us/assets/documen ... lo_eng.pdf



http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260 ... 98827232-2

StuUnderPressure wrote:
Just found this thread.

I had thought of using a working but unused UPS for just such a purpose (after replacing the battery, of course).

The inverter problem you mentioned was the only reason I never did it yet.

Perhaps, somehow, the ResMed converter could be used instead of the UPS inverter?
But, that may defeat the purpose (less cost) of using the UPS to begin with?

An S9 will work fine with an MSW inverter, including the humidifier. Using the humidifier will reduce run time. The ResMed converter will probably give you a longer run time than the inverter if there's a 12V output.

As I said before, most UPSs won't run the CPAP for very long at all.

Good morning everyone.

I've been waiting for another post regarding battery hookups for xpap. I have some questions.
1) For those of you (including you Slartybartfast) that use that kind of battery setup, do you keep that in your bedroom year round?
2) Also Slartybartfast, do you or anyone else ever worry about battery acid even though you have a battery case?
3) Marine batteries - Do they need to be filled with water at some period of time. I don't know why I'm thinking of this.

NOTE: I know nothing about automobiles except how to turn on the engine, fill up my tank with gas, and check my tires much less anything about batteries. Also, I've contacted Respironics on how to do a battery setup for my apap.

Starting in December, I'm going to track how many and for how long power outages we have in north Denver. From what I've read it is pretty much a mute question just for the fact of any time off of xpap is unacceptable.

Starlette

Slartybartfast wrote: Now, if I had only an Intellipap*, which runs on 12 volts DC, simply running on a battery would be the preferred solution.

*Actually, I do, but that one is at the wife's near Seattle.

The IntelliPAP is perfect for people that have frequent power losses. You can connect both the mains power AND the 12 volt cord at the same time. If you loose power, it will automatically switch to 12 volt and turn off the humidifier. It actually does the job of a UPS all on it's own

Lizistired wrote:I want one too. I think this is the best idea. I just haven't come across a dead UPS to use! Where is a good place to look?
We have a local electronics recycle center. I guess I should try there. Other suggestions?

Liz, I came across mine at work. It was sitting under a coworker's desk. People would rather spend a couple hundred dollars of their employer's money rather than go to the trouble of changing the battery themselves, or having someone do it for them. Anyone who works in an office environment likely has seen a dead UPS next to a trash can. Most companies recycle dead electronics now. Ask around and keep your eyes open.

Starlette wrote:Good morning everyone.

I've been waiting for another post regarding battery hookups for xpap. I have some questions.
1) For those of you (including you Slartybartfast) that use that kind of battery setup, do you keep that in your bedroom year round?
2) Also Slartybartfast, do you or anyone else ever worry about battery acid even though you have a battery case?
3) Marine batteries - Do they need to be filled with water at some period of time. I don't know why I'm thinking of this.

NOTE: I know nothing about automobiles except how to turn on the engine, fill up my tank with gas, and check my tires much less anything about batteries. Also, I've contacted Respironics on how to do a battery setup for my apap.

Starting in December, I'm going to track how many and for how long power outages we have in north Denver. From what I've read it is pretty much a mute question just for the fact of any time off of xpap is unacceptable.

Starlette

1.) Yes.
2.) No worry about battery acid. The battery is enclosed in a vented plastic battery box and it produces no vapor. Such a battery, simply sitting with a good charger (or UPS) connected to it, can last many years because it is very seldom or never deeply discharged.
3.) So-called Maintenance-Free batteries don't need to be filled with water. The one I used is not maintenance-free, but I have not had to add water.

Re: your need for a battery backup, most people don't need one. However in my case, electric power is delivered along a long windy canyon road lined with utility poles which seem to be irrestible targets for drunk drivers weaving their way home in the wee hours of the morning. Your mileage may vary, as they say.

archangle wrote:

Slartybartfast wrote:The power from a UPS is about as clean as it's going to get.

Well, except that it's a modified sine wave (MSW), not a true sine wave.

MSW can damage or cause poor operation on quite a few devices. For instance, ResMed says MSW may damage an S8 humidifiers.

For many electronic devices, an MSW waveform acts like a lower than normal voltage because of the way their power supply converts AC to DC.

S9 and PRS1 CPAP will take MSW even with humidifiers, as will many other CPAP blowers. Heated humidifiers are more tricky.

Belkin says it's a "simulated sine wave," which I suppose is MSW which can mean anything from a stepped square wave to something pretty smooth. My statement about "clean as it's going to get" referred to spikes, transients, brownouts, etc. It may not be a true sine wave, but at least it's consistent power with no spikes. And my S9 Autoset has no complaints.

Slartybartfast wrote:

Starlette wrote:Good morning everyone.

I've been waiting for another post regarding battery hookups for xpap. I have some questions.
1) For those of you (including you Slartybartfast) that use that kind of battery setup, do you keep that in your bedroom year round?
2) Also Slartybartfast, do you or anyone else ever worry about battery acid even though you have a battery case?
3) Marine batteries - Do they need to be filled with water at some period of time. I don't know why I'm thinking of this.

NOTE: I know nothing about automobiles except how to turn on the engine, fill up my tank with gas, and check my tires much less anything about batteries. Also, I've contacted Respironics on how to do a battery setup for my apap.

Starting in December, I'm going to track how many and for how long power outages we have in north Denver. From what I've read it is pretty much a mute question just for the fact of any time off of xpap is unacceptable.

Starlette

1.) Yes.
2.) No worry about battery acid. The battery is enclosed in a vented plastic battery box and it produces no vapor. Such a battery, simply sitting with a good charger (or UPS) connected to it, can last many years because it is very seldom or never deeply discharged.
3.) So-called Maintenance-Free batteries don't need to be filled with water. The one I used is not maintenance-free, but I have not had to add water.

Re: your need for a battery backup, most people don't need one. However in my case, electric power is delivered along a long windy canyon road lined with utility poles which seem to be irrestible targets for drunk drivers weaving their way home in the wee hours of the morning. Your mileage may vary, as they say.

1.) Yes, I have an SLA battery at the moment, but will be upgrading to a 12V flooded cell, Solid-plate deep-cycle battery in the next month or two.

2.) The chances of battery acid leaks are extremely slight.

You're far more likely to pull your machine off the table, spill the humidifier water into the blower, stub one toe on the bedside table and the other on the battery box then you are to have an acid spill.
Consider that the average car battery is as heavy or heavier than your bedside table. You can always pour a pound of baking soda in the bottom of the battery box for extra peace of mind, but it's probably overkill.

3.) "Maintenance Free" is a bit of a misnomer. All lead-acid batteries have the capability to lose their electrolyte solution if they're overcharged. The "Maintenance Free" batteries just make it more difficult to get to the electrolyte solution. This is fine as long as your charger doesn't accidentally overcharge the battery, but can prematurely kill the battery if it ever does happen.

@Slartybartfast - Can you rephrase what "maintenance-free" means?

SB, how do you reach from your bed to operate the S9?

Slartybartfast wrote:

archangle wrote:

Slartybartfast wrote:The power from a UPS is about as clean as it's going to get.

Well, except that it's a modified sine wave (MSW), not a true sine wave.

MSW can damage or cause poor operation on quite a few devices. For instance, ResMed says MSW may damage an S8 humidifiers.

For many electronic devices, an MSW waveform acts like a lower than normal voltage because of the way their power supply converts AC to DC.

S9 and PRS1 CPAP will take MSW even with humidifiers, as will many other CPAP blowers. Heated humidifiers are more tricky.

Belkin says it's a "simulated sine wave," which I suppose is MSW which can mean anything from a stepped square wave to something pretty smooth. My statement about "clean as it's going to get" referred to spikes, transients, brownouts, etc. It may not be a true sine wave, but at least it's consistent power with no spikes. And my S9 Autoset has no complaints.

Actually archangle, the problem with MSW inverters is not that they put out a lower voltage (the RMS voltage is the same as the utility sine wave) but rather that they are incompatible with modern Power Factor Corrected (PFC) power supplies found in higher end electronic devices.

I use an off-the shelf Cyberpower Systems pure sine wave UPS rated at 1000VA (http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/produc ... eries.html). This series is specifically designed for equipment with PFC power supplies.

This UPS puts out a pure sine wave (I use a Resmed machine), is small, ultra quiet, relatively cheap, and has a muteable alarm (no wires to snip). You also get 350k$ of surge damage insurance for connected equipment (just a nice-to-have). The 1000VA model is available at Amazon for 128$US.

This UPS has a 9Ah battery and can run my S8 Autoset II + H4i humidifier for a full 30 minutes. However, I only need a few minutes when an outage happens. My use case is different than the original poster (slartybartfast). Power outages here only happen a few times a year and last from 1 to 3 days. I use the UPS mainly for protection against surges and power fluctuations but also as a nighttime "alarm" to wake me up when a power outage actually occurs while I am sleeping. I then manually switch over to my small Li-Ion power pack (3 lbs., about the size of a book) which can last me 3-4 nights (sans humidifier). This is not quite as convenient as just sleeping through the outage but I have to get up anyway to switch off power bars on computer and home entertainment systems to avoid damage from the fluctuations on the power lines as the utility restores power. Since I already had the Li-Ion pack for fishing/camping/trekking/travelling, this approach allows me to avoid modifying the UPS and dealing with the bulk and maintenance of a deep cycle battery.

To those thinking of going the external battery route, I recommend matching the battery type (Typically SLA) you remove from the UPS. This is to ensure the charging and float voltages applied by the UPS charging circuit are appropriate for your large battery. Otherwise, you could damage it or not keep it fully topped up. For example, commonly available Optima deep cycle batteries have slightly different charging voltage requirements than say a marine wet cell lead acid battery. Furthermore, since the UPS charger is designed for a smaller battery, recharge time after a long outage will take a while. A typical UPS will require 8-14 hrs to fully recharge its small 9Ah battery. If you bolt on a 90Ah battery, you are looking at more than proportionally longer charge times.

All that said, given the frequency of power outages in his area, and the availability of a free UPS, I understand why slartybartfast used the external battery approach for his use case. The fact that he can sleep through these events would seem to indicate he is less concerned about his computers and home entertainment systems than I am about mine.

SgtWilko