CPAPtalk.com

Cuda wrote: . . . Archangle claims using nasal pillows and tape can lead to aspiration as puke would have no where to go. . . .

I doubt that any RRT, EMT, or other medical professional would encourage a person to tape. It simply goes against everything in their training for helping humans in distress. Assuring clear airway is generally job number one, even ahead of stopping bleeding, as I understand it.

On the other hand, most medical practices and procedures involve some remote risk of death. People have died from taking painkillers or getting teeth pulled, after all. I have no trouble with people informing other people of even very slight risks when the consequences can be profound, as long as the risk isn't being overstated for a perfectly healthy (other than OSA), sober human asleep in his or her own bed. The problem is, no one knows where to draw the line between stating a remote possibility and overstating it, since I am aware of no scientific studies on the matter, or of anyone coming up with a way to have such a study. No one knows the incidence of spontaneous vomiting during sleep among the medically-sound nonmedicated, as far as I know. Some people go to bed drunk. There is always the possibility of sleeping pills or cold medicine and food poisoning combining, I guess, for anybody.

Because of there being some remote risk to it, slight though I think it to be, I would personally never actively encourage anyone to tape up, since the consequences, however remote the chances, could be catastrophic. But I would still mention taping as a possibility for personal choice to a fellow patient having leak problems. The decision of whether it is worth the slight risk is likely, in my nonscientific judgment, much the same as deciding whether to take a painkiller or to have a tooth pulled--every man and woman has to make that call for himself or herself based on personal circumstance. I choose not to hand people my personal OTC painkillers, but I mention painkillers to people in pain.

I am glad taping is so often discussed in this forum so that people who choose to do it can do it as effectively and safely as possible, according to their own judgment.

Just my off-topic 2 cents on taping.

jnk wrote:I doubt that any RRT, EMT, or other medical professional would encourage a person to tape. It simply goes against everything in their training for helping humans in distress. Assuring clear airway is generally job number one, even ahead of stopping bleeding, as I understand it.

How 'bout an 'ol re-tired EMT?

However comma aa's problems are far beyond any training I ever had.

GumbyCT wrote:

jnk wrote:I doubt that any RRT, EMT, or other medical professional would encourage a person to tape. It simply goes against everything in their training for helping humans in distress. Assuring clear airway is generally job number one, even ahead of stopping bleeding, as I understand it.

How 'bout an 'ol re-tired EMT?

Ah, GumbyCT--the great exception that proves many a rule!

GumbyCT wrote:However comma aa's problems are far beyond any training I ever had.

Oddly enough, those are the exact problems I AM trained for!*

*(nonmedical).

Just a matter of time before someone says it, so I will go ahead:

You are more likely to be killed in a car accident driving to the store to buy the tape.

So Well wrote:Just a matter of time before someone says it, so I will go ahead:

You are more likely to be killed in a car accident driving to the store to buy the tape.

Agreed, which is why there is Amazon... the LifeSaver

So Well wrote:Just a matter of time before someone says it, so I will go ahead:

You are more likely to be killed in a car accident driving to the store to buy the tape.

Agreed.

But I can't prove it.

So I respect other views on the matter.

jnk wrote: Doesn't the fact that no one suffocated even in that worst-possible-case scenario actually prove the fear to be wrong?

Unfortunately, a lot of people are dumb enough to seriously believe that. Just like surviving drunk driving or falling asleep at the wheel once doesn't prove much.

archangle wrote:

jnk wrote: Doesn't the fact that no one suffocated even in that worst-possible-case scenario actually prove the fear to be wrong?

Unfortunately, a lot of people are dumb enough to seriously believe that. Just like surviving drunk driving or falling asleep at the wheel once doesn't prove much.

OK. I'll bite.

By that standard, wouldn't the burden of proof rest on the one claiming the danger to point to ONE documented case of it actually happening ONCE, SOMEWHERE, ANYWHERE, EVER?

We have many documented cases of drunk driving and falling asleep at the wheel causing death. Where is the documentation that mouth taping in conjunction with CPAP has ever resulted in a fatality?

Cuda wrote:All the other arguments regarding tape are lame. If your nose plugs up you will just wake up, that's what apnea is. The whole idea is keeping your airway open so you do not wake up, if you cant breath you wake up. But the aspiration was the drum archangle was constantly beating.

What am I missing here?

You're not missing anything. You're misstating what I said. Probably deliberately.

I don't think there's a big risk from dying from a stopped up nose if you tape your mouth.

The risk is from rebreathing your exhaled air if your CPAP fails with your mouth taped. That's the reason every full face mask sold has an "anti-asphyxia" valve. If you keep rebreathing your exhaled air, CO2 builds up and O2 drops.

Please explain why every full face mask sold has an anti-asphyxia valve if there's no risk of asphyxiation if you breathe in an out of a full face mask with a dead CPAP machine? What does the anti-asphyxia valve do?

Until you can explain the anti-asphyxia valve away, your argument that taping is safe is irrelevant. Why would you asphyxiate with a FFM, but not with a nasal mask with your mouth taped?

By the way, thanks for giving me another chance to help keep newbie tapers from becoming Darwin award winners due to bad advice on this board.

GumbyCT wrote:
Agreed, which is why there is Amazon... the LifeSaver

Maybe Amazon isn't the answer. The UPS truck could crash into your home. This UPS driver needs to find cpaptalk.com.


MENTOR, Ohio - Mentor police say the UPS driver who crashed into a home fell asleep behind the wheel.

According to police, the UPS driver, Lee Brandt, 57, from Lyndhurst, was traveling west on Lakeshore Boulevard when he dozed off, went off the road and hit another car, before driving into the living room of a home in the 7100 block of Lakeshore Boulevard.

Read more with pictures: http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_ ... entor-home

Jeeper

Jeeper wrote:

GumbyCT wrote:
Agreed, which is why there is Amazon... the LifeSaver

Maybe Amazon isn't the answer. The UPS truck could crash into your home. This UPS driver needs to find cpaptalk.com.


MENTOR, Ohio - Mentor police say the UPS driver who crashed into a home fell asleep behind the wheel.

According to police, the UPS driver, Lee Brandt, 57, from Lyndhurst, was traveling west on Lakeshore Boulevard when he dozed off, went off the road and hit another car, before driving into the living room of a home in the 7100 block of Lakeshore Boulevard.

Read more with pictures: http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_ ... entor-home

Jeeper

He was probably on CPAP, but wasn't getting effective therapy because of mouth-breathing.

Ok, since jnk made the first joke...

I wonder if the driver remembered to leave the package on their porch

No? Too soon? Whew, is this mike on... (tap) (Tap) (TAP), tough crowd...

By the way, mouth-taping was NOT invented on this board. It has been studied and documented and seems to be a relatively accepted approach by some medical professionals in some places, at least in Europe.

For example:

"Taping the mouth was associated with a marked reduction of leak, improved ventilation (i.e. decrease of carbon dioxide pressure) and sleep quality (i.e. reduction of arousal index and increase of REM sleep)."--http://www.ersj.org.uk/content/20/4/1029.full

"On the control night, patients slept as usual. On the treatment night, conditions were identical to the control night excepting that the mouth was taped closed several minutes prior to lights out, using several layers of hypo-allergenic medical grade adhesive tape. The last 5 cm of the tape was folded over to provide a nonadhesive quick-release tab, and the patient shown how to use this. . . . On the taped night, leak was largely abolished in all but one patient . . . Patients tolerated the mouth tape surprisingly well, and the tape was still securely in place in the morning, patients reporting that the seal was still intact. The effect of taping the mouth on sleep architecture is shown in table 3 and figure 2. All nine patients showed a reduction in arousal index with taping of the mouth, and on average the arousal index was more than halved with taping."--http://www.ersj.org.uk/content/14/6/1251.full.pdf+html

That said, it is still not something I personally choose to encourage. I mention it as one of several things one might choose for oneself.

If it was as dangerous as some are suggesting in this thread, though, the medical professionals involved in the above-quoted study would be in prison today for their participation, wouldn't they?

Some Canadian docs are on the ball in knowing about it, too:

Mouth leak can be improved by use of a chin strap, placement of tape or a bandage over the mouth, or use of a full face or oral interface.--http://www.thoracic.org/clinical/sleep/ ... e-leak.php

Note: You have to click on the "answer" tab to get to that wording.

chunkyfrog wrote:Personally, I'm jonesing for a Reuben--with pastrami, provolone and pumpernickel.

You're KILLING me, chunkyfrog!!!!

Jeeper wrote:Maybe Amazon isn't the answer. The UPS truck could crash into your home. This UPS driver needs to find cpaptalk.com.

Let me sleep on it....I'll give you an answer in the morning.

Tape anyone?

Who was it on here that did the experiment with the sock?

Brilliant, no tape use socks. Save a driver - use socks.

Lest we digress like the other thread on here.

Let me sleep on it....