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Just saw a Dr. Oz show, a re-run from Dec or Jan., where he talked about using liquid melatonin in chamomile tea for a sleep aid.

GumbyCT wrote:Just saw a Dr. Oz show, a re-run from Dec or Jan., where he talked about using liquid melatonin in chamomile tea for a sleep aid.

That tea sounds like a good idea! I used to buy and use herbal relaxing teas many years ago. I need to try that again.

Otter said, "Unfortuantely, smaller doses are hard to find, but you could get a pill cutter from the drugstore and cut the smallest tablet you can find into quarters." That's what I just did, used my pill cutter on the 3 mg melatonin pill, cut it into quarters, so 750 mcg each. I took one tonight.

You might find this article useful. The author is an MD who has used both 5htp and tryptophan in her practice.
http://www.thewayup.com/newsletters/101599.htm

Otter wrote:You might find this article useful. The author is an MD who has used both 5htp and tryptophan in her practice.
http://www.thewayup.com/newsletters/101599.htm

Thanks! That is a useful article. I bookmarked it. She says to use the 5HTP at night time for sleep help, but doesn't say so about tryptophan. I'm guessing its similar, take the tryptophan an hour or two before lights out for sleep help. I took a 100 mg 5-HTP pill last night with the 750 mcg melatonin. I'm still not sure how much either is helping. I'm looking forward to the tryptophan arriving soon so I can try that at night in place of the 5-HTP and melatonin.

Here's another thought for which maybe I should start a new thread - I think intestinal gas may be part of my insomnia problem, waking me up during the night. Usually when I wake up I am on my right side. Then I roll over to my left side to get more comfortable to try to fall asleep again. Then I have to pass gas. It makes me wonder, were the gas pressures that were building up in my intestines enough of a discomfort to cause me to wake up? And then I consciously notice it when I shift body position and that creates enough pressure to have to pass the gas? It's more than aerophagia, since it has an unpleasant odor to it. I'll search the site here for "gas + insomnia" and see what I find.

Jeffster wrote: Here's another thought for which maybe I should start a new thread - I think intestinal gas may be part of my insomnia problem, waking me up during the night. Usually when I wake up I am on my right side. Then I roll over to my left side to get more comfortable to try to fall asleep again. Then I have to pass gas. It makes me wonder, were the gas pressures that were building up in my intestines enough of a discomfort to cause me to wake up? And then I consciously notice it when I shift body position and that creates enough pressure to have to pass the gas? I'll search the site here for "digestion + insomnia" and see what I find.

Undoubtedly the gas pressure can indeed contribute to insomnia and wake you up.

Since you're using CPAP, there are two interrelated possible causes for your frequent night time gas problems: Aerophagia (swallowing CPAP air) and GERD or LPR, which is also known as "silent GERD". Acid reflux (both GERD and LPR) are often aggravated (or even caused) by apneaic episodes due to the pressure changes in the airway causing the esophagus sphincters to relax and allow stomach acid to back up into the esophagus (GERD) and/or throat (LPR).

So add "aerophagia" and "gerd" to your search terms.

Treating the GERD/LPR may help the insomnia if you often wake up with gas pain. Learning how to minimize (unconscious) swallowing of air while on CPAP may also help.

robysue wrote, "Treating the GERD/LPR may help the insomnia if you often wake up with gas pain." Thanks again for help! I had just updated my previous post, then saw yours! I want to tell you as an aside, robysue, I'm an alumnus of UB. I think of that whenever I see your posts.

Jeffster wrote: I "...graduated from..." UB.

Uncle Bob RULES.....

GumbyCT wrote:

Jeffster wrote: I'm an alumnus of UB.

Uncle Bob RULES.....

I meant University of Buffalo, but I must agree Uncle Bob rules. Also I should have used "alumnus" so I corrected my original post, and my quote of you quoting me here! Now I wish I had just typed, "...graduated from..."

Jeffster wrote:

Otter wrote:You might find this article useful. The author is an MD who has used both 5htp and tryptophan in her practice.
http://www.thewayup.com/newsletters/101599.htm

Thanks! That is a useful article. I bookmarked it. She says to use the 5HTP at night time for sleep help, but doesn't say so about tryptophan.

That's because when she wrote the article, tryptophan was still banned by the FDA, for all uses except baby food. I believe tryptophan was determined to be safe for infants because they don't have any money to spend on SSRI antidepressants. Now that this class of antidepressants is well established in the pharmacy, tryptophan is safe for adults again. But as I think you've noticed, bricks and mortar health food stores still tend to have only 5HTP.

I'm guessing its similar, take the tryptophan an hour or two before lights out for sleep help. I took a 100 mg 5-HTP pill last night with the 750 mcg melatonin. I'm still not sure how much either is helping. I'm looking forward to the tryptophan arriving soon so I can try that at night in place of the 5-HTP and melatonin.

I don't think it's the same for everyone. I take 5HPT (or tryptophan) right before bed because if I take it sooner I have to fight sleepiness to get my chores done, and by the time I finally get to bed, I'm awake. 5HTP might take effect slightly faster than tryptophan because it's one step closer to serotonin, but I'm not sure the difference will be noticeable.

Just before I put my mask on, I take 100-250mcg of melatonin (cut from 1mg tablets), but only if I'm not sleepy.

If I wake up in the night and I'm not sleepy, I take another 100mg cap of 5htp. If that didn't make me sleepy again, I'd try a small dose of melatonin, but though I used both 5HTP and tryptophan before CPAP, I've only been doing this again for a few nights, and I haven't needed melatonin to get back to sleep yet. If small doses of melatonin don't make you sleepy, you may be so deficient on serotonin that your body is converting the melatonin to get more serotonin. If you you feel scattered or irritable, that's probably what's going on.

If you're not sleepy at night, turning the lights down might help. I've needed melatonin a lot less since I started keeping the lights low at night. I've got everything on dimmers, and all my bulbs are 40w or less now. If I use the computer at night I turn the brightness all the way down. And if I forget to do this, or have to turn the lights up for some reason, I'm not sleepy no matter how tired I am.

GumbyCT, I like what you did with that quote! I got a good chuckle from it.

Otter, thanks for the additional excellent advice. I tried that last night. I felt sleepy enough that I decided to take no medicines. I kept the 3 meds right on my night stand with my cup of water. I was a little unsure in the first few minutes, but then i think I fell off to sleep within 15 minutes. But perhaps some external noise, not sure, something woke me up an hour and a half later. I lay here for a while realizing I did not feel sleepy, so I took one of each pill, a 750 mcg melatonin, a 100 mg 5-HTP, and a 50 mg trazodone. Sometime later I fell back off for 4 hours of sleep. I may try it again tonight, not take anything, and see how far I can go.

Thanks for all the advice here from everyone. I will try to be careful with my use of these meds. I just so desperately want to have a good night's sleep, like so many of us.

One thing I thought of that I changed back in mid Decemeber - I went from using a Resmed Mirage nasal mask to using a Resmed Mirage Quattro full face mask. I know for the first week on it I thought the FF mask was a big improvement in comfort, and I thought mouth breathing was under better control. Later on as my insomnia worsened, I thought about this, and changed back to using my nasal mask for a night, but it was so less comfortable to me than the FF that I switched back and thought that using the FF mask could not be contributing to my insomnia. So it's just coincidence, right, that my insomnia was worsening around the same time as switching masks? With the nasal mask, I had gone to taping my mouth shut to deal with with mouth breathing, and i think that is part of what makes the FF mask more enjoyable to me, no mouth taping.

Update:
Last night I tried again going to sleep without taking any medications. Around 11 PM lights out, as usual. I fell asleep probably within 10 minutes, which is really good for me, especially considering sans medications. Unfortunately, about an hour and half later I woke up around 12:30 AM for no apparent reason, just like last night, except that I was having a dream, so was likely in REM state. I felt like I could go back under and did so relatively soon.

I woke up again at 1:30 AM, had to go use the bathroom which is unusual for me, then back to bed and did fall off again somewhat soon. Then a wake up at 3 AM. I lay there for a while realizing I was not feeling sleepy anymore. So I got up and took a 100 mg 5-HTP and 750 mcg melatonin (skipped the trazodone at least) and went back to bed. It took a while but I did fall off. And then had 30 to 60 minute fragmented sleep segments until about 7:20 AM. As usual I have the energy to get up and od things, but my mental state is in a fog, so it is hard to get going on anything. I decided to update this sleep report, FWIW. At least it is something to help focus my attention.

The tryptophan has not arrived yet. When it does, and I try it, I hope it will let me sleep longer through the night.

Coincidentally, I will be vacationing in Albuquerque NM next week. I have been reading through Dr. Barry Krakow's web site, and have thought I could at least briefly visit his Maimonides clinic while there. I still need to get and read his book, "Sound Sleep, Sound Mind." He seems to be saying exactly what I have been telling my doctor for half a year: if we could take care of my sleep problems then my other problems would be so much better.

Jeff, do you ever get sleepy -- not just tired or exhausted or foggy, but actually nodding off sleepy -- during the day?

Otter wrote:Jeff, do you ever get sleepy -- not just tired or exhausted or foggy, but actually nodding off sleepy -- during the day?

No. Over the past few years I often wished I could take a nap, but although I tried in the afternoon, I was not able to fall asleep. Before I started on CPAP in 2002, I was close to nodding off when doing things like driving my car home from work, so CPAP was a real life saver in my case I believe. Now for the past 6 months of this insomnia flare up, in what seems to me to be ironic, I have more energy to do things than I can handle at times. Ive used this towards getting longer walks done, increased pool swimming, and such. But the mental state being in a fog can adversely affect things like driving a car, making decisions, simple math, coherent sentences. And panic attacks can be overwhelming for some of the simplest decisions. You mentioned confusion, and I do feel that at times.

Basically I went from an older Respironics Remstar CPAP machine to the S9 a little over a year ago and saw improvement over time, getting the APAP thing adjusted and working for me. Then in December a switch from the nasal mask to Quattro FF mask seemed to yield more benefits. Then this insomnia thing flared up bad but like I said, it's wild how I usually have more energy in the mornings and throughout the day in contrast to loss of mental acuity. I wonder if some of this is part of aging. I have been feeling more relaxed the last couple of days. I've actually caught myself yawning in the day, which seemed like something i hadn't done for a while. So maybe something is working where I am rebuilding my serotonin levels to more normal, like you have mentioned? And that is helping me relax more? And I just have ot be careful to not overdo it and go into serotonin syndrome?

BTW, I just asked my provider today if I could get a Quattro FX mask to try, and was told it is not available as one they can offer me yet (Kaiser Permanente So Cal). I'll be sticking with the regular Quattro for a while.

Sounds to me like you're making progress but are still low on serotonin. You might want to try using more 5HTP/tryptophan. Maybe take one cap before bed, then another if you wake up and don't feel sleepy, maybe even a third or fourth if needed. I've been taking 2 100mg doses of 5HTP this way for the last few days, and I'm feeling much better and my mind is clearer even when I don't get that much sleep.

It also sounds like maybe your adrenal glands haven't calmed down yet. Ever feel like you could put on pink ears, pick up a bass drum, and do battery commercials?

What's your AHI these days?

Ambien and Melatonin....works for me. Most times skip the Ambien.