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I have nothing against paying what it is worth for a well designed product.

But when we are talking about a product which is needed by many of our fellow humans just to survive, is selling it for many, many times what it's worth ok by you?

jedimark wrote:I have nothing against paying what it is worth for a well designed product.

But when we are talking about a product which is needed by many of our fellow humans just to survive, is selling it for many, many times what it's worth ok by you?

Right but so is garbage collection, food production, water purification, fire fighting, all medical related activities and many other things. Should all this be done at minimum wage or by volunteers? Or maybe government owned?

If they start charging 1000 times what it's COSTS to do even those things, then something needs to be done.

The human race is a family, and needs to start acting like one.

jedimark wrote:I have nothing against paying what it is worth for a well designed product.

But when we are talking about a product which is needed by many of our fellow humans just to survive, is selling it for many, many times what it's worth ok by you?

First of all, your assumption that people are paying more for a ResMed machine than what it is worth is incorrect. No one is coerced to buy a machine and no one is coerced to pay a certain price. My machine is keeping me alive and healthy. It is worth more to me than what I paid for it.

Now I suspect you are careless in your terminology and do not mean "worth" but you are actually referring to ResMed's "cost". I will also claim that it is a false assumption that ResMed sells their machines for many, many times their costs.

If you look at ResMed's financial fundamentals, http://investor.resmed.com/phoenix.zhtm ... fundRatios , you will see a company that has healthy returns but certainly not high returns and definitely not very high returns that would indicate the sales prices for their machines are unusually high. In fact, if you look at the ratios in the referenced link and hypothesize that ResMed would reduce prices for all their products by just 5% (ceteris paribus) you can see that the financial ratios would fall to poor levels. In particular, return on equity, already mediocre, would fall to a very poor level and consequently the stock price would drop sharply.

ResMed's ability to raise capital and continue current operations, research, and growth would be severely hindered.

Personally, I much prefer to buy products and services that are important to me from companies that are profitable and have a strong balance sheet. Especially with a medical device so critical to me, I would not want to rely on a company that is financially weak. I also like to think that my money is going to a company, such as ResMed, that continues to invest in new products for future improvements in my therapy and health.

In my years. both in my personal life and my business, I have dealt with many companies who were not performing well financially. Eventually, usually sooner than later, I was disappointed or totally let down by their services and products.

BTW, I am not biased in favor of ResMed and have never owned a ResMed brand machine. The next time I purchase a machine I will follow my routine of making a careful evaluation of the available brand and model choices looking at benefits of each machine and cost to me and making a choice based on best cost/benefit ratio.

jedimark wrote:
The human race is a family, and needs to start acting like one.

That sounds like a call for communism. Are you aware that this system has been tried on both grand and small scales and has failed miserably each time?

Capitalism is the system that has provided an amazing increase in the standard of living of billions of people in the last 100 years. Capitalism is the system that brought us the CPAP products we have today. If I had waited on "the family" to do that, I would surely have been dead before now.

BlackSpinner wrote:

Right but so is garbage collection, food production, water purification, fire fighting, all medical related activities and many other things. Should all this be done at minimum wage or by volunteers? Or maybe government owned?

Good point.

Our local garbage collection is being changed by the city to save money. We have concerns that the new contractor has trucks that are not maintained in the safest conditions, has drivers that are not the most skilled, and has collectors that are not the neatest workers. "You get what you pay for."

I guess if Harold Camping had been correct, we would be in that place where capitalism is no longer needed and everyone works hard for the benefit of the family. But since Harold was wrong, I will stick with capitalism for the time being.

You've got a lot of time on your hands to argue.. I'm not interested in doing that.

I was originally speaking about the technical aspects.. I am an engineer with the capability of building such systems. They are not as complicated as you might think.

I don't believe in communism or capitalism. Man has been dominating each other to his injury for centuries with many forms and systems of governance and commercial code.

We all share common ancestors.. We are all cousins, brothers, sisters.. Why is it "communism" because I draw attention to this?

If you want to stay in business...3 times your cost (minimum).

jedimark wrote: We all share common ancestors.. We are all cousins, brothers, sisters.. Why is it "communism" because I draw attention to this?

Because that is the concept that traditional communism is based on but most Americans can't swallow. Too much 50's & 60's propaganda is embedded in the mythic mindset now to see the actual facts or read the writings. It has become the "N" word of politics.

jedimark wrote:I am an engineer with the capability of building such systems. They are not as complicated as you might think.

OK,so build 'em in your basement and sell 'em at cost! You'd corner the market. You would make a huge....number of your brothers and sisters happy! Of course, you might starve; but isn't "the family" what's really important?

(Although, considering you went from "10,000%" markup to "1000 times what it costs" to "many, many times what it's worth", I'm not certain I'd trust my life to your exacting math and engineering...)

There are those who would say that if we had capitalism, you'd be able to buy the machine you want without a prescription. Anyone would be able to sell them. If one vendor is DME too much, another DME would undercut them on price. Government regulation wouldn't be stifling competition to a small "good old boy" group of manufacturers who have unwritten agreements not to undercut each other on price or otherwise compete too hard and ruin the profit margins.

If the buyer want to pay extra to work with a doctor and an "approved" DME, you'd be allowed to do so, but not required.

I'm not saying "pure capitalism" is necessarily the right way, but if you're discussing capitalism vs. communism vs. totalitarianism vs. the nanny state, it's worth considering.

Those who talk about "anti-capitalism" never talk about the existing "anti-capitalism" that benefits them, but they bring "anti-capitalism" up when someone proposes something that hurts them.

LinkC.. It's called an exaggeration, my maths isn't that bad..

I didn't suggest they should sell them at cost. I'm certainly not against anyone earning an honest living.

But an open-source/open standards cpap machine would totally rock.

Build it...they will come.

jedimark wrote:
I don't believe in communism or capitalism. Man has been dominating each other to his injury for centuries with many forms and systems of governance and commercial code.

To the contrary, the free market approach to capitalism has brought mankind far greater individual freedom and prosperity than any other system. This approach has released hundreds of millions of individuals from domination by others. Have you any knowledge of the history of government, society, and economies in the last 250 years???

What you are calling families I take to be an approach to communal living with the whole world as one big commune. We have plenty of experience with communes in the U.S. since the early 1800s. Almost all of them proved to be failures including the hippie communes of the 1960s. None of these communes ever developed any technology, all were financially unstable, and I am glad we did not depend on them to make our CPAP machines.

archangle wrote:There are those who would say that if we had capitalism, you'd be able to buy the machine you want without a prescription. Anyone would be able to sell them. If one vendor is DME too much, another DME would undercut them on price. Government regulation wouldn't be stifling competition to a small "good old boy" group of manufacturers who have unwritten agreements not to undercut each other on price or otherwise compete too hard and ruin the profit margins.

Many capitalists are against free markets and love and use crony capitalism to their advantage. You are confusing capitalism and free markets and throwing in a bit about crony capitalism. You might want to learn the difference.

So Well: The hundreds of millions you talk about who have been "released" have simply gone into another form of slavery, and that number includes you.

Enjoy it while it lasts.. pretty soon the dollar will be worthless and your faith in capitalism will falter.

So Well wrote: Many capitalists are against free markets and love and use crony capitalism to their advantage. You are confusing capitalism and free markets and throwing in a bit about crony capitalism. You might want to learn the difference.

I don't consider those people to be "capitalists." They're like Jim Baker claiming to be a "Christian" while stealing the church's money and cheating on his wife.