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Hi Rooster...thanks so much for your quick reply. I'm glad you are doing so well after, what sounds like, a very extensive surgery. And I appreciate your encouragement. I've never had any problems with breathing through my nose until I had back-to-back colds in Jan/Feb of this year. It's so frustrating and unfortunately, has created a ton of anxiety. Yes, I've reads TONS of posts on various websites where people talk about their horrible experiences with turbinate reduction. My doc assures me that he is very conservative, but has been very honest that turb reduction can cause empty nose. We haven't got to the conversation yet about what he does to prevent this in his patients as we are still working on the radiofrequency procedure, but it is something I will definitely ask him about if I do have to have actual surgery. While I'm concerned about ENS, I'm more concerned that the surgery won't work and I still won't be able to breathe through my nose after going through the surgery. I'm a bit of a nervous nelly. But it sounds like, from this forum, that most people who have had a turb reduction have been very glad they did. It's very encouraging.

per-turbed in san jose wrote:.......My doc ....... but has been very honest that turb reduction can cause empty nose. ......

Per,

Is he saying surgery can cause ENS when he does it? Or is he just saying other doctors have caused it in some cases?

My doc said ENS was caused by surgeons who did not know about it and removed too much of the turbinates. He further said there is no longer a reason for ENS if the surgeon is aware of ENS and knows how to prevent it.

Good question, Rooster. I don't know exactly what he meant as he answered it in regards to my question, "Will Radiofrequency cause ENS?" To which he replied, "No, not with RF, but it can happen with surgery." If we get to the point where we have to consider and discuss surgery for me, I will definitely ask him what his experience is with his patients ever experiencing ENS after surgery and what he specifically does to prevent it. As I mentioned, he did say he is a very conservative surgeon (he's actually on older guy and was educated at Yale and Stanford), performs a lot of turb reductions, and he does understand what ENS is. I saw one ENT (a younger guy) who actually got irritated with my questions regarding ENS and told me he couldn't spend any more time talking to me. Uh, hello...I'm about to let you cut on my nose...I think a few answers to my questions are in order. The second ENT I saw, another young guy who is very well respected and well known for his innovative sinus surgery techniques, told me he deals with bigger problems than mine (not being able to breathe through my nose) and that I might want to consider just living with it. Ugh! This third, older guy actually said he could help me and that if the RF would work, it was worth a try in order to keep me out of the OR, so I didn't feel like he is cut-happy, as my regular doctor says. If you have any suggestions for other specific questions in regard to this, I'd greatly appreciate your suggestions.

How long did it take you to recover from your surgery to the point where you felt like you could breathe normally through your nose?

Thanks again, Rooster.

per-turbed in san jose wrote: ........
How long did it take you to recover from your surgery to the point where you felt like you could breathe normally through your nose?

Thanks again, Rooster.

Surgery on a Tuesday, splints out that Friday and I immediately was getting more air through my nose than ever before. There was some swelling that gradually subsided over a few weeks.

To Detroit Sweetheart: Tomorrow is your surgery according to your post and I wish you best of luck. Plastic splints for 5 days were not fun but boy can I breathe better now...let me know if you lose your sense of taste as I have not gotten mine back yet and it has been almost a month (May 21, 2009) although today I could almost taste cheetos so I was sure glad to taste anything. I am so glad I went through the surgery as I can finally breathe through my nose and am sleeping so much better. Plus he gave me "nose pack anxiety" meds to deal with the 5 days of splints since I was freaking out about that. This was my 3rd sinus operation so I just was not happy about having to go through this for a 3rd time..He gave me loratab or something like it, very effective, didn't care if I was miserable or not. Keep us posted.

Hello,
I am going to have septoplasty, turbinate reduction, and a tonsillectomy on7-10-2009. I am scared out of my mind. I am scared of the pain and not being able to take care of myself. These posts on this site have been really helpful because I was also about to cancel my surgery ( my surgeon talked me out of it) because I am soooo scared. I read some real horror stories on other sites, but it seems as if you all had some moments, but the end result was worth it. I am also tired of people on the phone asking if I have a cold and if it is quiet people think I am sleep because I breathe so hard out of my mouth. I will try to keep everyone posted on how I am after surgery.

Sherry girl...glad to hear you are doing better. Did you have both a septoplasty and a turbinate reduction? If so, what kind of turbinate reduction did you have? How long did it take you to be able to breathe through your nose again?

Thanks in advance for any information you can share.

Scared 29 wrote:...... I read some real horror stories on other sites, but it seems as if you all had some moments, but the end result was worth it. .....

I heard horror stories also. Many of those horror stories were about surgery done more than 15 years ago - and they were true stories. The surgery is done very differently today and it is much easier on the patient (and the doctor).

I hope your surgery goes as well as mine did.

I could breathe better as soon as they took the plastic splints out, 5 days after septoplasty with turbinate reduction. Breathing is improving and taste is coming back very slowly. I am glad I had it done. I had my tonsils and adenoids out when I was 5. I turn 60 this year and I remember the bad sore throat and back then, all I got was an ice bag for pain. These days I am sure they can keep you comfortable and hopefully out of it until you feel better.

Just had septoplasty/turbinate reduction on tuesday 6/30/09. I was scared stiff as I had had a rhinoplasty in 1965 and it was the most horrible experience of my life, (am I showing my age?), however, this was done with the most modern techniques with one of the best ENTs on the East Coast. (I researched it) IT WAS NOT THAT BAD. I cancelled this procedure once do to tremendous fear, but as I was waking up with tremendous headaches most days of the week do to turbinates pushing over to the left hand side of my nose and resting on each other, and only breathing out of 15% of my nose due to a deviated septum, I knew I needed to "BITE THE BULLET" and get this done!! Well, even with the packing in my nose and just feeling like I had a very bad cold, I am breathing better only three days after surgery,better than I ever did before the procedure!! My packing gets removed tomorrow!! I took off my "drip pad" yesterday and still have tinged mucus and blood, worst part was "anxiety over the procedure", I have had minimal pain, and one day of slight nausea that zofran seemed to help-immediately. Don't get scared of the blood coming out of your noses and having to change the pad about every hour for first 16, it is less blood than it appears, and also I kept coughing up stuff in the back of my throat for fear of vomiting that never took place and that my doctor said "Just never happens anymore" because of the endoscopic techniques that he uses in surgery. Yes, it is uncomfortable, you are stuffed up for awhile, however, if you remain calm and hope for the best, find a good ENT and think of the advantages to doing this, you will all be fine!! hope this helps!!

Hi Hope...thanks for posting about your recent septo/turb reduction procedure. Glad to hear that it is going well and that you are already feeling so much better. Like you were prior to surgery, I'm a bit scared. I have a slightly deviated septum, but my turbinates are HUGE and need to be reduced. Had radiofrequency, but because of the amount of swelling I have, it didn't do enough to relieve the congestion. I've researched some of the best ENT's on the West Coast and found one that does a procedure called "powered turbinate reduction" using a microdebrider. Although it's surgery, it is less invasive as it only cuts the submucosal surfaces and never touches the outer mucosa. I think I'm going to try this first before I include the septoplasty since my deviation is so minor. But hearing that your experience hasn't been too bad, I feel much more at ease if I have to have the septoplasty. My biggest fear (as it probably is with most people) is that it will either not work (the septoplasty) or make things worse. Perhaps I need to work on my positive thinking skills.

BTW...do you know what turbinate procedure you had...radiofrequency, coblation, submucosal resection, etc.

Thanks again for sharing your encouraging experience. I wish you continued quick healing for you.

Sorry...that last post was mine...forgot to type in my name and it logged me in as "guest".

I've read enough in here to be scared off of this surgery, although its been recommended to me by my ENT to help me "breathe better". Or was it just for more money to line his pocket? I forgot. Anyway, I did a quick CBA in my head and it wasn't much of a contest.

1. the surgery has a painful recovery
2. the surgery is not always successful
3. the surgery has complications ("open nose" syndrome)
4. the surgery by itself does not eliminate the need for CPAP
5. issues corrected by the surgery could resurface later
6. successful surgery would allow for a switch from a full-face to a nasal mask

What is the big detraction of the full-face mask? It seems to me it isn't that much bigger than a nasal mask, but the fact that it covers the mouth and ensures therapy outweighs the benefits of a nasal mask, especially when it seems many nasal mask users have to tape their mouths shut. This can't be good. Is a nasal mask with one's mouth taped shut significantly more comfortable than a full-face mask? Which brings me to:

The human body was designed with two orifices to allow for oxygen. Deliberately shutting off one of these orifices seems foolhardy to me. Its isn't natural. Its like having a main power source and a generator, but you decide to permanently shut off the generator because it doesn't run as smoothly as the main power source. But what happens if you lose main power (i.e. your nose clogs up?)

Jason S. wrote: ........
1. the surgery has a painful recovery
2. the surgery is not always successful
3. the surgery has complications ("open nose" syndrome)
4. the surgery by itself does not eliminate the need for CPAP
5. issues corrected by the surgery could resurface later
6. successful surgery would allow for a switch from a full-face to a nasal mask

......

Wow Jason, I think you really came to some poor conclusions.

1. "the surgery has a painful recovery" Not true in my case. I had two hours in the recovery room of very bad pain in my throat from blood dripping or more likely from the anesthesiologist cramming the breathing tube in too hard (he did deny it). After that subsided the pain was gone. I never opened the large bottle of codeine the doctor sent home with me. I think many of the stories you hear about pain are from surgeries more than 15 years back when the methods were cruder and they actually packed you with a 30-foot roll of packing. Now those were bad surgeries.

2. "the surgery is not always successful" If you have a submucosal resectioning of the turbinates and a correction of a deviated septum, then your turbinates are reduced in size and your septum is straightened out. That is the only legitimate goal of the surgery. If the surgeon cannot get this done, then he doesn't need to be doing surgery.

3. "open nose syndrome" Empty nose syndrome used to occur because some surgeons reduced the turbinates to nothing or near nothing. There is no excuse for ENS anymore. Surgeons are well aware of what to do to prevent it.

4. "does not eliminate the need for CPAP" In almost all cases of obstructive sleep apnea, the blockage is between the back of the tongue and the soft palate. This surgery is in the nasal passage and will not affect the blockage. I never heard anyone claim that the goal of this surgery is to eliminate the necessity for CPAP. It will not.

5. "issues corrected by the surgery could resurface later" I guess the turbinates could grow large again. However, before ever considering surgery, the doc should be sure the turbinates are not enlarged due to inflammation and/or allergies. If they are not, then after surgery they should not enlarge again unless something changes to cause chronic inflammation. Of course a corrected septum could end up deviated again - if you take a blow to the nose. I took a few blows to the nose in my youth, but my ENT said the great majority of deviations occur during infant delivery and he suspected that is where mine occurred.

6. "successful surgery would allow for a switch from a full-face to a nasal mask " The goal of my surgery was never to allow me to switch from my FFM to a nasal mask. The doc could not predict what my body, particularly my jaw, would want to do when I fell asleep. The goal of the surgery was to allow me to breathe freely through my nose both when asleep and when awake. The surgery achieved that goal in a big way. Other benefits for me include a noticeable lessening of mouthbreathing at night; less congestion when I have a cold or allergies; ending of the decades-old-every-morning ritual of nose blowing and blood in the Kleenex - now, when needed, one or two blows clears it for the day and it is very rare to see blood in the Kleenex; and a little increase in feeling of well-being because I can breather so easily through my nose.

Sorry you got the impression you stated here. I think it is not an accurate impression of how these surgeries go today in the hands of a good ENT.

But if I did not trust the ENT and if I thought he is "in it just for the money", then I would not let him cut on me!

Regards,

rooster wrote:

Jason S. wrote: ........
1. the surgery has a painful recovery
2. the surgery is not always successful
3. the surgery has complications ("open nose" syndrome)
4. the surgery by itself does not eliminate the need for CPAP
5. issues corrected by the surgery could resurface later
6. successful surgery would allow for a switch from a full-face to a nasal mask

......

Wow Jason, I think you really came to some poor conclusions.

1. "the surgery has a painful recovery" Not true in my case. I had two hours in the recovery room of very bad pain in my throat from blood dripping or more likely from the anesthesiologist cramming the breathing tube in too hard (he did deny it). After that subsided the pain was gone. I never opened the large bottle of codeine the doctor sent home with me. I think many of the stories you hear about pain are from surgeries more than 15 years back when the methods were cruder and they actually packed you with a 30-foot roll of packing. Now those were bad surgeries.

2. "the surgery is not always successful" If you have a submucosal resectioning of the turbinates and a correction of a deviated septum, then your turbinates are reduced in size and your septum is straightened out. That is the only legitimate goal of the surgery. If the surgeon cannot get this done, then he doesn't need to be doing surgery.

3. "open nose syndrome" Empty nose syndrome used to occur because some surgeons reduced the turbinates to nothing or near nothing. There is no excuse for ENS anymore. Surgeons are well aware of what to do to prevent it.

4. "does not eliminate the need for CPAP" In almost all cases of obstructive sleep apnea, the blockage is between the back of the tongue and the soft palate. This surgery is in the nasal passage and will not affect the blockage. I never heard anyone claim that the goal of this surgery is to eliminate the necessity for CPAP. It will not.

5. "issues corrected by the surgery could resurface later" I guess the turbinates could grow large again. However, before ever considering surgery, the doc should be sure the turbinates are not enlarged due to inflammation and/or allergies. If they are not, then after surgery they should not enlarge again unless something changes to cause chronic inflammation. Of course a corrected septum could end up deviated again - if you take a blow to the nose. I took a few blows to the nose in my youth, but my ENT said the great majority of deviations occur during infant delivery and he suspected that is where mine occurred.

6. "successful surgery would allow for a switch from a full-face to a nasal mask " The goal of my surgery was never to allow me to switch from my FFM to a nasal mask. The doc could not predict what my body, particularly my jaw, would want to do when I fell asleep. The goal of the surgery was to allow me to breathe freely through my nose both when asleep and when awake. The surgery achieved that goal in a big way. Other benefits for me include a noticeable lessening of mouthbreathing at night; less congestion when I have a cold or allergies; ending of the decades-old-every-morning ritual of nose blowing and blood in the Kleenex - now, when needed, one or two blows clears it for the day and it is very rare to see blood in the Kleenex; and a little increase in feeling of well-being because I can breather so easily through my nose.

Sorry you got the impression you stated here. I think it is not an accurate impression of how these surgeries go today in the hands of a good ENT.

But if I did not trust the ENT and if I thought he is "in it just for the money", then I would not let him cut on me!

Regards,

Rooster,

I'm glad the surgery was successful for you, however I wasn't directing my post to your specific case or the goals you had in opting for the surgery so your personal experience is not germane to my post regarding why I'm not having the surgery. The truth is everyone has a different story, many not so positive as yours, and obviously everyone has varying levels of disability prior to surgery. For me and my own personal cost-benefit analysis, rejecting the surgery was a no-brainer. It is true I have a level of skepticism regarding the medical profession and what I consider the massive overselling of what, for the most part, is unnecessary surgery.