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Re: Doctor Spreading Dangerous Misinformation in Richmond, VA?

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:54 pm
by LinkC
jnk wrote: If the heart attack or stroke occurs at night (which, as I understand it, is more likely than during the day, for OSA sufferers) and occurs during sleep and results in death, that would fit the definition of "sudden death during sleep." Right? Maybe the editor messed that up.
The high blood pressure is a "complication" of OSA. That "invites" heart attack or stroke. The heart attack (whether nocturnal or not) is not directly a complication of OSA.

{quote="A London Bridge Cardiologist"]As far as the relationship between sleep disordered breathing (SDB) and cardiovascular disease is concerned there are two aspects to the problem which are really quite separate. First the prevalence and effects of SDB on patients who already have coronary artery disease and secondly the relationship between the incidence and prevalence of coronary disease and SDB. Bear in mind the important point that just because there is an association between the prevalence of two conditions that does not mean that one causes the other. There may be a third factor causing both! This is very important when it comes to considering the effects of treatment. [/quote]

Re: Doctor Spreading Dangerous Misinformation in Richmond, VA?

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:57 pm
by SleepingUgly
jnk wrote:
. . . In severe cases, surgical or laser removal of the redundant tissue permanently opens the air passageway. . . .
Severity is not the primary issue, is it? Refusal or inability to use PAP therapy or lack of response to oral appliance is generally the issue (or issues) that leads to surgery, isn't it? And if "permanently" is being used there by the doc to mean "a little bit for a few years," maybe that word is OK. But that's not what "permanent" means to me. Bad word choice, I think, especially if he was talking about UPPP.
Per Dr. Kasey Li, surgery works best in young, nonobese, with mild to moderate apnea.

http://www.sleepapneasurgery.com/surgic ... dults.html

Re: Doctor Spreading Dangerous Misinformation in Richmond, VA?

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:00 pm
by LinkC
Madalot wrote:What is the very FIRST thing a person will think when they read it?
That depends on whether the reader is a skinny woman or a fat man, apparently...

Re: Doctor Spreading Dangerous Misinformation in Richmond, VA?

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:00 pm
by robysue
Maybe I'm just feeling really crotchety today because the insomnia monster paid a pretty bad visit last night. But this article has me seeing red on so many levels.
The patient usually is an overweight male who's a loud snorer.
I am SOOOOO sick of dealing with this stereotype when telling my friends that I have apnea. Typical conversation:
  • Them: "What's been going on? You've obviously been feeling horrible and you're not doing very well. Anything I can do to help out?"
    Me: "I was diagnosed with sleep apnea earlier this fall and I'm having some difficulty adjusting to CPAP. Just bear with me and keep in mind I'm not sleeping very well yet."
    Them: "WHAT? You can't have apnea. You're not a big fat overweight Buffalo guy. You're a skinny, small underweight woman!"
According to my sleep doctor's PA, some 40% of sleep apnea patients are NORMAL weight or UNDERWEIGHT.
Loose, flabby tissue in the throat completely collapses and blocks the passage of air to the lungs — the apnea phase.
This language continues the negative stereotypical language that implies incorrectly that sleep apnea is primarily a disease of lifestyle choice---i.e. one that can easily be avoided by maintaining a "good" and "healthy" lifestyle. You know: Eat right, exercise right, don't gain weight. Well I basically do those things and guess what, I got apnea.

No, the truth is more complicated: OSA is not caused by "loose, flabby tissue" which implies the overweight apnea sufferer made the tissue loose and flabby the same way he made his belly "loose" and "flabby" by eating too much. Rather, in many OSA patients the problem is that the smooth muscles in our necks that support our airway simply relax too much when we are asleep. And we don't have much conscious control over smooth muscles---so it's not like we can do body building exercises to somehow get these muscles into "better shape." No, our bodies have a physical difference and we---at least the 40% of us who are normal weight and more than likely many of those who are also overweight as well---cannot control the fact that our neck muscles have a tendency to over relax when we are asleep.
Daytime grogginess is all but universal.
I for one had NO daytime sleepiness prior to starting CPAP.
A drop in the snorer's blood oxygen level is the reason bad things happen.
I had NO desats during my diagnostic sleep test. There are, however, good reasons for treating moderate to severe OSA even when daytime sleepiness and oxygen desaturation are NOT issues. I say this as someone who is continuing to have problems with treatment. WHEN I manage to make my therapy work for me, I expect that finally having the ability to sleep the full night without having multiple, repeated respiratory arousals every single night, will have long term health benefits for my body. If nothing else, managing my apnea now---before I have started having desats---will prevent the damage that desats are associated with from occuring.
If your son is overweight, weight loss might be the thing that cures him. A mouth guard that pulls the chin slightly forward keeps throat tissues from collapsing. The family doctor or dentist can direct him to a place that sells these devices. CPAP — continuous positive airway pressure — is a device that delivers pressurized air to the patient through a face mask. The pressure keeps the throat opened at all times. In severe cases, surgical or laser removal of the redundant tissue permanently opens the air passageway.
Why is CPAP undersold here? It is accepted as the gold standard treatment for those who make a serious, committed effort to adjust to it, unlike weight loss, dental appliances, or surgery. In particular, why isn't the fact that the various surgical procedures are often complex, painful, and not entirely effective at fully eliminating the apneas made clear?

Re: Doctor Spreading Dangerous Misinformation in Richmond, VA?

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:07 pm
by LinkC
robysue wrote:Maybe I'm just feeling really crotchety today

Maybe?????

(Simmer down...just jerkin' your chain...)

Re: Doctor Spreading Dangerous Misinformation in Richmond, VA?

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:25 pm
by jnk
LinkC wrote:The high blood pressure is a "complication" of OSA. That "invites" heart attack or stroke. The heart attack (whether nocturnal or not) is not directly a complication of OSA.


The hormone surges during an apnea can precipitate a heart attack, though, as I understand it. In other words, if you punch a guy hard in the chest at night while he is asleep and he dies of a heart attack, yer gonna need a good lawyer. Whether OSA makes it onto the certificate in the instances in which an apnea precipitated the attack is not the point to me, or to you, I assume. Bad sleep and bad breathing could kill you, and could do so without much warning, at night, in your bed, while "asleep" during a violent apnea, if you have a "bad" heart. Common? Maybe not particularly. Possible? I would think so, in my non-doc mind. Implying it is impossible would not be good medicine, I don't think, then, even for a journalist/doc. In my opinion, anyway. Even though his statement is factually defensible, he may be contradicting the statement of the patient's primary doc (or sleep doc) who warned of possible consequences of nontreatment.

Re: Doctor Spreading Dangerous Misinformation in Richmond, VA?

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:31 pm
by jnk
SleepingUgly wrote:
jnk wrote:
. . . In severe cases, surgical or laser removal of the redundant tissue permanently opens the air passageway. . . .
Severity is not the primary issue, is it? Refusal or inability to use PAP therapy or lack of response to oral appliance is generally the issue (or issues) that leads to surgery, isn't it? And if "permanently" is being used there by the doc to mean "a little bit for a few years," maybe that word is OK. But that's not what "permanent" means to me. Bad word choice, I think, especially if he was talking about UPPP.
Per Dr. Kasey Li, surgery works best in young, nonobese, with mild to moderate apnea.

http://www.sleepapneasurgery.com/surgic ... dults.html
Good point. Also from that page:
. . . the only surgical procedure that has been able to achieve a consistently significant response rate is maxillomandibular advancement. Other surgical procedures that are less invasive are often much less predictable and clearly less successful . . .
The first time I meet a UPPP patient who had the surgery 20 years ago and has proof that AHI is below 5 and is perfectly happy with how it all turned out and would recommend it to everyone else, then I will rethink my opinion of UPPP. Until then, I consider the use of the word "permanent" in a "redundant tissue" operation discussion to be highly questionable, myself, unless the doc had in mind tumor removal or something.

Re: Doctor Spreading Dangerous Misinformation in Richmond, VA?

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:33 pm
by jnk
Nicely said, Robysue.

Hey, if we can't all be grumpy here, where can we be?

Sometimes mentioning the oral appliance first may help patients to pursue treatment instead of being scared off by the prospect of having to deal with PAP, which can seem like a big deal early on. Maybe that's why it got mentioned first?

Re: Doctor Spreading Dangerous Misinformation in Richmond, VA?

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:19 pm
by LinkC
jnk wrote: while "asleep" during a violent apnea, if you have a "bad" heart.
Yes, "if". And in that instance, the "bad heart" is the culprit. Without it, you would have survived the apnea.
jnk wrote: Even though his statement is factually defensible, he may be contradicting the statement of the patient's primary doc (or sleep doc) who warned of possible consequences of nontreatment.
True dat! And any patient who gets general information which conflicts with that specific to his case, should probably go with the specifics, or at least discuss it with his PCP. That hardly makes the general statement "misinformation".

What color is the sky? Before you say "blue", consider that in can also be gray, white, pink, violet or black. But, in general, it is blue. Does that make "the sky is blue" misinformation?

Re: Doctor Spreading Dangerous Misinformation in Richmond, VA?

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:30 pm
by jnk
LinkC wrote: . . . And in that instance, the "bad heart" is the culprit. . . .
I agree. Or, uh, actually, I mean, YOU agree.
jnk earlier wrote: Sudden death usually requires interplay of another serious condition. In other words, an otherwise healthy patient with a good heart is likely to live through his apneas, even when his quality of life gets to the point that he wishes otherwise.

Re: Doctor Spreading Dangerous Misinformation in Richmond, VA?

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:47 pm
by avi123
Slinky wrote:Lets see: where's that list of professional athletes .... ??? Hmmmm. Reggie White, .....

On the other hand, if you have a patient who tends to anxiety, who is up tight about their OSA Dx or are writing an article or publicly answering a question from the general public ....
Slinky, your "professional athletes" comment reminds me that on those TV shows during the weekends about PRISONS, the healthy ones are the prisoners and the unfit are the guards.

p.s. i still don't know how to reply to PMs, i am new here

Re: Doctor Spreading Dangerous Misinformation in Richmond, VA?

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:13 pm
by Lizistired
I was bothered by the quote in the OP. That generalization is what kept me from considering sleep apnea for several years, for myself and family members. After reading the whole article... C'mon, it's Dr Donohue. It wasn't an interview or a story. It was one question and one answer.

Re: Doctor Spreading Dangerous Misinformation in Richmond, VA?

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:22 pm
by jnk
Slinky wrote:Hmmmm. Reggie White, .....
Image

Re: Doctor Spreading Dangerous Misinformation in Richmond, VA?

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:12 pm
by Slinky
Leave it to you, jnk! Just the facts, man, just the facts.

Re: Doctor Spreading Dangerous Misinformation in Richmond, VA?

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:33 pm
by jnk
Slinky wrote:Leave it to you, jnk! Just the facts, man, just the facts.
I don't pretend to be in law enforcement, though, since that would be dangerous misinformation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxhuUdZzGYw