CPAPtalk.com

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:09 pm**

DreamDiver wrote: For me, the extra heat is not as much a problem as the humidity in the room during the summer. About three in the morning, if the room humidity is high, it can make a seventy-degree room feel like eighty.

How I feel during the day or night is very much affected by the dewpoint. Here is some discussion we had on dewpoint.

... If you want to maintain a good temperature for your comfort here is how to do it. It sounds like you already have a hygrometer to measure the relative humidity inside your house. Take regular readings of R/H and convert them to dewpoint. Here is a free online dewpoint calculator - http://www.vaisala.com/humiditycalculat ... s%2frhcalc . All you have to do is input the temperature and R/H and set Fahrenheit or Centigrade and the dewpoint is calculated.

Keep a record of the dewpoints inside your house and maybe a note of how comfortable you felt.

Dew points in the 50s: The air is very comfortable. Especially on the days when the air temperature is very high. Dew point values in the 50s, with air temperatures in the 90s is very comfortable.

Dew points in the lower 60s: You'll start to notice that it will feel a tad bit sticky. Not too bad- but you will notice a slight move out of your absolute comfort level. Folks with respiratory problems may experience a little difficulty breathing.

Dew points in the upper 60s: At this point, the air is becoming quite humid. You will definitely notice that is it sticky outside, and your body will respond. When the dewpoints approach the upper 60s, the humid air does not allow sweat to evaporate as quicky (sweating is a cooling mechanism for your body), and so it takes longer for you to cool off. People with respiratory problems could start to find breathing difficult.

Dew points in the 70s: This is oppressive. This is when we start hearing the terms- "soupy," and "sultry." Combined with warm air temperatures, we start seeing dangerous conditions, which pose probelms such as heat exhaustion and heat stroke for those outside in the heat and humidity.

Dew points in the 80s: Lock yourself indoors.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59423&p=558281&hili ... nt#p558281

I am a runner and find my times increase and fatigue comes on quicker and is more severe when the dewpoint rises. And as you have inferred, sleeping becomes less restful.

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:49 pm**

roster wrote:...How I feel during the day or night is very much affected by the dewpoint. Here is some discussion we had on dewpoint.
...
... I am a runner and find my times increase and fatigue comes on quicker and is more severe when the dewpoint rises. And as you have inferred, sleeping becomes less restful.

Thanks for the resources. Now I have a new project: create an interface that will log temperature and humidity from the radioshack rf-data-emitting thermo-hygro sensors I got for Christmas a few years ago.

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:19 pm**

Well if you are going to do that, you may as well build your own dewpoint calculator:

A well-known approximation used to calculate the dew point Td given the relative humidity RH and the actual temperature T of air is:

where

where the temperatures are in degrees Celsius and "ln" refers to the natural logarithm. The constants are:

a = 17.271
b = 237.7 °C
This expression is based on the August–Roche–Magnus approximation for the saturation vapor pressure of water in air as a function of temperature.[3] It is considered valid for

0 °C < T < 60 °C
1% < RH < 100%
0 °C < Td < 50 °C

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dew_point

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:12 pm**

I put ice water in my humidifier. Keeps me sick all winter long. WTF kind of question is this? Everybody uses heated water in their humidifier. What is the purpose of even having a heated humidifier to begin with? Geeeeeeeeezzz stupid questions.

Mikey

Posted: **Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:28 pm**

roster wrote:DD, I continue to be surprised by the majority opinion among CPAPers that "a high level of humidity is good." I have never considered my lungs, although strong, to be anything other than typical of an active, healthy individual.

Any of dozens of health sources claim that a humidity level of 30 - 50% is optimal for airway and sinus health. For example, the Mayo Clinic website says,

Ideally, humidity in your home should be between 30 and 50 percent. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/humidifiers/HQ00076

The house designing and building industry uses the range of 40 to 50 percent for healthy indoor environments. Several sources have published charts similar to this one:

Nice chart, but it says absolutely nothing about how lungs and nasal mucosa function and feel at various levels of humidity. Apples and oranges. That chart is about controlling environmental issues such as allergens. You can maintain your home's humidity at 30%, and that is good, but that has NOTHING to do with the best value for your XPAP usage. For most people, that number is going to be a lot closer to 100%.

Some people, and perhaps you are one of them, have noticed that the higher temperatures that come with maxing out their humidifiers swell up their nasal mucosa, or is just plain old uncomfortable. Then you need to back the temperature down until the congestion and discomfort disappear.

Posted: **Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:41 am**

LoQ wrote: For most people, that number is going to be a lot closer to 100%.

Now are you talking about incoming air being close to 100% relative humidity?

If that is what you mean, it is not a credible statement. Typical R/H across the U.S., both indoors and outdoors, ranges from 30 to 50%. That means incoming air year-round is no where near 100% relative humidity.

Like I said to begin with, it continues to puzzle me why the majority of CPAPers believe they need heavy humidification when everyone else is breathing air without supplemental humidification. The human nasal passages are very efficient at adding moisture to incoming air.

Posted: **Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:00 am**

LoQ wrote:
roster wrote:... For most people, that number is going to be a lot closer to 100...

I don't know about you, but I have no gills and cannot breath underwater, so I personally would not want to see anywhere near100% humidity levels in my hose or mask.

Humidifiers used in CPAP can certainly increase the localized humidity within the hose and mask but only over a narrow range which is governed mainly by the actual air pressure and the temperature of that air and is then negatively affected because of the hose walls being a different temperature and also having a much higher friction coefficient due to their rough irregular surface. The maximum humidity level that could be generated would also be affected somewhat by the incoming air since the rather simple vapor generators only add a small amount of water to this air based on their surface area and temperature. Because of all these factors any given machine and settings will yield varying actual humidity levels in different locations and even from night to night depending on the above factors.

If you check many of the responses here you will see that people have varying preferences for what they use for humidity levels. I for one tried my machine initially with a higher setting but felt like I was breathing swamp gas because the air was too warm for my preferences and once I lowered it quite a bit was able to breathe much easier. Even at this lower humidity level I do like the side affect of it quickly clearing my sinuses when I first put the mask on.

The amount of relative humidity used is certainly a personal preference.

Posted: **Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:54 pm**

ResmedUser wrote:I put ice water in my humidifier. Keeps me sick all winter long. WTF kind of question is this? Everybody uses heated water in their humidifier. What is the purpose of even having a heated humidifier to begin with? Geeeeeeeeezzz stupid questions.

Mikey

Noooooo.......not EVERYBODY!
I only used my with heat maybe once or twice in the first couple of nights when I started therapy. Then I elected not to use heat......just "passover" mode (water in the tank but no heat). I even disconnected the power to the humidifier so I wouldn't accidentally turn it on. I NEED the cool air year round to keep my nasal passages open so I can breathe. Anything warmer and I get rainout, congestion and claustrophobia from the heated water and air.
The manufacturers have made non-heated humidifiers for many years. Most of the dedicated "passover" humidifiers have larger/wider surfaces for the air to pick up more humidity. In the areas of the country where the relative humidity is low, the air picks up more moisture anyway.
And, in the hot Summer months, many of us have been known to put very cold water (or ice) in the tanks. Actually, I keep my distilled water in the fridge all year round (in smaller plastic pop bottles.....a gallon will fit into six). My bedroom is also very cold (60 or cooler) so I route the hose under the covers......cheaper than a heated hose.

You really should be careful about what you categorize as "stupid".
One person's "stupid" is another person's "lab ratting".
Anything that works for a person to become successful with this therapy is NOT "stupid".

I've noticed over the years that the "passover" mode has caught on with quite a few other users.

Oh, and I almost never get "sick" anymore.

Den

Posted: **Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:38 pm**

I happily used an un-heated passover humidifier for 13 years. When that machine finally died, I really didn't want a heated one. Why fix something that isn't broke? I was in a hurry to get the replacement, though, so I went ahead and got the H5i/ClimateLine, thinking I would try it out and switch back to my old humidifer/hose if need be. Now I'm glad that I got one. I'm not sure if it's due to switching from CPAP to APAP or something else, but after a few weeks of trial and error (most of the time at 68°F and getting stuffed up), I ended up setting it to 80°F. I may have to back off of that in the summer, but it's working pretty well at the moment.

Posted: **Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:51 pm**

I put water in my freezer and take it out at bedtime when its icewater. Then put it in my humidifier. I sleep the best that way, cold water blowing up my nose at high pressure. All the company research says that ice water makes CPAP compliance improve.

Mikey

Posted: **Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:08 am**

ResmedUser wrote:All the company research says that ice water makes CPAP compliance improve.

I very much doubt that any "company research" (much less, "all company research") says ice water does that.

That said, I've read of others who prefer cool air via cold water in their cpap humidifier. Ice cubes in the water chamber would do that, yep. Cold water isn't going to let much "humidification" get to the person, but then some don't like any humidification at all. Everyone's different.

Posted: **Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:54 am**

For me it depends. Sometimes I need the heat on. Other times it just clogs my nose. The vast majority of the time I just put water in the tank but don't turn the heat on. I tried sleeping without the humidifier at all and it was way too drying, so the "passover" with no heat really does work (I didn't actually believe it at first)

Posted: **Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:10 am**

rested gal wrote:
ResmedUser wrote:All the company research says that ice water makes CPAP compliance improve.

I very much doubt that any "company research" (much less, "all company research") says ice water does that.

That said, I've read of others who prefer cool air via cold water in their cpap humidifier. Ice cubes in the water chamber would do that, yep. Cold water isn't going to let much "humidification" get to the person, but then some don't like any humidification at all. Everyone's different.

RG, this guy made this statement as a forum heckler. It has no truth or value. Before it becomes an urban legend worthy of snopes, let's nip this in the bud.

There is no value in putting ice cubes in your humidifier. There is no research proving or disproving that actively putting ice into a humidifier will be beneficial for some people.

The post was made by someone who actively intended for forum members to act like sheep and impute truth to what he said simply because he qualified his statement with a bogus 'company research says'. You would probably be better off not using any humidifier at all. This is more about leading people around by the nose for ResmedUser's personal entertainment than it is about actually helping anyone.

Until we get actual proof from a study or from direct experience of a considerable number of users, I'd say let's not feed the trolls.

Posted: **Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:17 pm**

So, the troll got bored and moved on to annoy someone else.

Posted: **Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:06 pm**

Do you use heated or cold water?

When I was new and still using a FMM - I wanted warm or hot water. I heated my water in the microwave when Respironics removed the timed pre-warmer from the M series.

These days I prefer the air to be cooler. I don't know if the reason is bc I now use nasal pillows but the warm air seems to make me uncomfy. I wish there was an option to cool-it.

And NO, Ice Cubes are NOT the answer. I don't feel like making distilled ice cubes. Plus, I add distilled to my tank once or twice a week. I leave the rest til it's gone.

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