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cwied wrote: I suspect that many here have encountered resistance or condescension from medical professionals while trying to understand their ailments and as such are very sensitive to suggestions that patients should be less self-empowered. This doesn't mean, however, that we can't learn from medical professionals.

Welcome to 21st century medicine! And I wouldn't hold your breath on learning much from anyone in the medical field. Occasionally, yes - but there are tons of boards just like this one to teach each other because the professionals know very little or they don't want to take the time to give you any information.

While I respect your attempt to defend Calist - I think he has said more than enough to deserve the thrashing he has gotten. When you identify yourself as a professional, you need to be careful not to misinform people. If you do - it can go a long way to hurt them because they take you way too seriously. Calist has told too many untruths be be anything but dangerous - therefore it is our job to call him on it.

Or do you want someone taking his bad and overly condescending advice and hurt themselves trying to follow it? I know that I am a rank amateur - and make no pretense about it. Calist talks as if he is the total authority - and he is not. That kind of talk is dangerous.

If you would like to speak with or learn from medical professionals that are involved in sleep science....

Go here. http://www.binarysleep.com/phpbb2/index.php?c=10

If however you are content to listen to jonquiljo tell you about how he has disproven medicine and how "And I wouldn't hold your breath on learning much from anyone in the medical field." then watch him call people names. Welcome.

gvz wrote:Thanks for the reference to that site, Calist. There is a recent post on it including a PDF called "OSA Pathophysiology" that goes VERY deep into sleep apnea. Looks like it is dated 2010. For me it's the most detailed document I've ever seen. Lots of big words , and I will need to use my dictionary...

So I wasn't dropped as a baby, after all! Page 46 explains it perfectly. (Now I know why all the doc's think I'm stupid! )


"Hypoxia/reoxygenation events increase the production
of angiotensin II peripherally or in astrocytes, resulting in activation of
angiotensin 1A receptors on catecholaminergic neurons. AT receptor
activation upregulates NADPH oxidase activity, resulting in oxidative
injury. Sleep apnea and intermittent hypoxia are associated with marked
inflammation in the brain including inducible nitric oxide synthase."

There is a literal ton of good stuff out there written about OSA but one of the big problems is the cost of it all. I know the Atlas Of Polysomnagraphy (The book I'm always demanding people read) is a very expensive book. Not sure how much it costs today but it was about $500 back when I started. Mainly it is because every sleep lab has to have it as a matter of pride. It was written by an RPSGT a long time ago and it basically goes into the basics of sleep science in plain English. Its a big book but a good read.

[quote="Calist"]If you would like to speak with or learn from medical professionals that are involved in sleep science....

Go here. http://www.binarysleep.com/phpbb2/index.php?c=10

Wow. I went over there to check it out, just for grins. Picked a thread at random. Freakin' scary.

- First post was in ALL CAPS, riddled with grammatical errors, and referred to the patient with an abnormal breathing pattern as a "train wreck" - ?!?

- The situation was described as possibly Cheyne Stokes, but with airflow present. Several responders thought that might be caused by the equipment, but there was no discussion of differential vs periodic breathing.

- One responder stated that her husband was also a "train wreck" like that patient, but that due to some help in May, "they" were planning to get him on the right track. The post was dated March. So her husband has been waiting 10 months for this?

- Someone posted a link to a tasteless YouTube video about Cheyne Stokes and proximity to death, and described it as funny (bizillion exclamation marks)

- One responder misunderstood the original post and made a comment about the cause of the airflow based on their misunderstanding.

- There's a discussion of ASV use for Cheyne Stokes, and one responder says stay away from full face masks in this situation, one says FFMs are absolutely required.

I realize that one thread doesn't necessarily indicate the general caliber of discussion on that board, but as someone who does audits frequently, I'd say it's not a good sign.

Bionarysleep is an ancient site. For the most part it is where RPSGTs go to hang out. You can learn a lot about sleep medicine in general from that site. On the inverse however you need to keep in mind that RPSGTs are sleep techs... and sleep techs are just plain weird.

Now if you don't mind....

IHAVE TO GO CUZ DIS GUY HERE IS DA TRAIN WRECK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Calist wrote:If you would like to speak with or learn from medical professionals that are involved in sleep science....

Go here. http://www.binarysleep.com/phpbb2/index.php?c=10

AHA! I knew that "patients are stupid"" tone rang a bell. We've had troll's from binarysleep here before.... much credit they did their purported profession... not. Some of them don't do much credit to their profession on their own forum either....

Calist wrote:If however you are content to listen to jonquiljo tell you about how he has disproven medicine and how "And I wouldn't hold your breath on learning much from anyone in the medical field." then watch him call people names. Welcome.

I would actually perfer listening to -SWS, and NotMuffy (and all his aka's...) The long run tone and content of a person's posts is the only way of validating anything said by anyone on a forum.

........rather than thousands of people who practice medicine every day. Well good luck with that. I hope it serves you well.

You have no idea just how hilarious it is to me that you recognize bionarysleep to be 'a forum of trolls'. I can't wait to hear criticism about John Hopkins or Mount Sinai.

Calist wrote:If you would like to speak with or learn from medical professionals that are involved in sleep science....

Go here. http://www.binarysleep.com/phpbb2/index.php?c=10

Thank you for the link!


FIrst thread I read over there after the link was posted:

http://www.binarysleep.com/phpbb2/viewt ... e523933f78

Read the very first paragraph in the very first post in that thread; it's PRICELESS!

gvz wrote:I don't know what nitric oxide synthase in the brain is, but back in the day, I knew some Deadheads that huffed nitrous oxide at shows. So it can't be good.

That brings back some "interesting" memories. Back in the day, I learned it was not wise to drink the Kool-Aid being passed around at Grateful Dead shows!

LoQ wrote:

Calist wrote:If you would like to speak with or learn from medical professionals that are involved in sleep science....

Go here. http://www.binarysleep.com/phpbb2/index.php?c=10

Thank you for the link!


FIrst thread I read over there after the link was posted:

http://www.binarysleep.com/phpbb2/viewt ... e523933f78

Read the very first paragraph in the very first post in that thread; it's PRICELESS!

Using that site as an example of "good" medical professionals -- Blech.

Madalot wrote:Using that site as an example of "good" medical professionals -- Blech.

Madalot, did you read the first paragraph of the first post of that thread? You really need to read it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think you will enjoy it immensely.


Personally, I do not have a huge amount of trouble with the professionals over there. Everyone needs to blow off steam, and sometimes people look a little less "professional" when they do that. But of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and you are welcome to disagree with mine.

LoQ wrote:

Madalot wrote:Using that site as an example of "good" medical professionals -- Blech.

Madalot, did you read the first paragraph of the first post of that thread? You really need to read it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think you will enjoy it immensely.


Personally, I do not have a huge amount of trouble with the professionals over there. Everyone needs to blow off steam, and sometimes people look a little less "professional" when they do that. But of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and you are welcome to disagree with mine.

I read every post on the first page. And I agree with you that they need a safe place to blow off steam. I have no problem with that. I think everyone needs to blow steam sometimes. Life can be very frustrating, especially for those that work with the public.

And on that site, it IS an appropriate thing, apparently, to do. But this site is different and that mentality isn't well received. It's NOT that someone is a medical professional -- it's the attitude they bring to the table.

Reading some of the posts on binarysleep makes me VERY afraid to ever get another PSG.

Madalot wrote:I read every post on the first page.

And you did NOT find the following hysterically funny?

One of the forums even had a sleep tech giving advice. Unfortunately, in his posts he calls patients stupid and they don't know anything about sleep medicine. Of course that does not go over very well.

I sense that you might be becoming bitter towards all sleep professionals, and it's slanting the way you read what is written over there. I certainly can understand where you are coming from, but I might just gently suggest that such an emotion is not especially in your best interest, though only you can know whether or not that is true for you.

There's nothing wrong at all about blowing off steam........everyone needs to do that. Where one chooses to do that defines whether one is professional or not.

Sometimes, within any profession, the inside comments and jokes do not seem appropriate to the outside world.......so they are not shared outside of an appropriate setting.

Pretentious, rude, arrogant attitudes and bully-ing directed at individuals and groups of people is totally different.............and unacceptable and intolerable anywhere and everywhere.

It's the individual--in this case, Calist, that should be ignored based upon his demonstrated behaviors and self documented attitudes, not the whole industry of sleep techs--the grand majority who are respectable, knowledgable, caring people who want to honestly help patients, and do not think patients are stupid. Thankfully people like Calist are the exception in the real world.