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Re: Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:31 pm
by Nord
Really wrote:
Nord wrote:The difference is that in Canada... the government subsidizes its' citizens health by making it available to people that need it... not just those who can afford it.
You say that like its a bad thing? Really??

I thought that I'm pretty clear on what side of the fence I stand on... really.
Nord wrote:Surprising that the US was created with the morals of the French Revolution and removing the Class system within its' citizens and yet...
The Healthcare system you defend is all about people belonging to classes of affordability.
Do they make it available to illegal immigrants like the US does? Not uncommon for illegals to come to the US for the FREE healthcare you mentioned above. Really!!

It's a Provincial matter... In Ontario you must be a resident and possess a Medical Identity card... medical emergencies are treated as such... not by immigration status.

Why do the Canadians always want to bash our healthcare but then get on the bus to come over the border for treatment? Really??
As a matter of record... Canadians don't "bash" your healthcare or lack of it... it's not in our nature. We Canadians defend our HealthCare system... much like other civilized nations that have many successful socialized systems in place.

Did you "really" buy the Republican publicity that many Canadians go to the US for HealthCare... Perhaps I can interest you in some swampland that I can sell you in Florida or maybe a bridge that's been hardly used. Most Canadians just laughed. The only Canadians that I know that have gone to the US for HealthCare are the ones that were sent there for treatment and paid for by the Provincial Government or as an exception... Million Dollar athletes who need an operation... yesterday.

Nord

Re: Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:19 am
by billbolton
So Well wrote:Your life expectancy argument is about life expectancy and measures something other than quality of medical care.
There is a fairly direct correlation between the quality of medical care over the whole national population and national life expectancy, so its a good outcome based metric at the national level as it captures not only the proactive/preventatative and reactive/remedial aspects of healthcare delivery but also the equity aspect of how well healthcare is delivered across the population as a whole
So Well wrote:Even with all that, it strains credulity to hear that the U.S. ranks far from the top.
The US CIA yearbook scores somewhat differently but still only ranks the US as (about) 35th.
So Well wrote:Sick people come to the United States for treatment. How often do you hear of someone leaving this country to get medical care?
There have indeed been posts recently right here about the degree of medical tourism occuring by US citizens to avoid the high costs of procedures in the US healthcare system.
So Well wrote:When you adjust for these "fatal injury" rates, U.S. life expectancy is actually higher than in nearly every other industrialized nation.
A bold claim.... what's your source for it?
So Well wrote:Life expectancy is not a measure of the quality of healthcare
Whether you like it or not, its a commonly used measure of healthcare system effectiveness at a national level for many health informaticians.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:05 am
by Gondring
Nord wrote:
roster wrote:Go read some history books. Canada once was contributing medical innovations. That all started to dry up decades ago after a socialist medical system was installed.

There are medium sized companies in the U.S. that produce more medical innovation every year than the entire country of Canada produces.

My wishes are that you can change your system and that we can stop our government from destroying the U.S. innovation.
[...] in your free market. (now... there's a misnomer)
Ain't that the truth!
Nord wrote:As regards to your medical innovation... nowadays...
money for "innovation" is spent by Billion dollar medical companies who locate themselves in countries that have lower taxes.
Then how do you explain the US success (nearly highest corporate tax rate in the world--see, for example, http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... tio-1.html)?
Nord wrote:Any "innovations" that are created anywhere including the US... are available to anybody including Canadians that are willing to pay.
Yes, you're right...the US subsidizes many other healthcare systems to a staggering extent.
Nord wrote:Surprising that the US was created with the morals of the French Revolution and removing the Class system within its' citizens and yet...
The Healthcare system you defend is all about people belonging to classes of affordability.
You might want to check your world history. The US couldn't have been created with the morals (sic) of the French Revolution (without a time machine, that is). Some of those morals go back millenia earlier... (II Thessalonians 3:10) and were expressed by the leader of the first permanent English settlement in what would become the US: "He who does not work, will not eat."
Nord wrote:I guess its not so strange if you belong to the upper class to make medical help immediate...
and have insurance that is welcomed just like your MasterCard.
Well, my tax dollars go toward caring for many who are choosing not to get health insurance (you can buy it yourself, you know), and even those who are criminals....and I greatly welcome your offer to pay for them yourself (your criticism does imply a willingness to pay...or do you just advocate spending the money of others?). It would be a huge burden off working Americans. Thank you.
Nord wrote:And here I said I didn't want to play... I keep hoping that some enlightenment and goodwill will penetrate.
Maybe its too late for you... a man of the Twentieth Century.
Funny thing. People complain about rising costs of health care, but it's really not going up. If you want to go in and get 1970s care, skipping MRIs, etc., then your costs won't be very high. Costs are higher because people want improvements. And those improvements (from which we all benefit) have been financed by those willing to pay.

...which is why a Canadian friend of mine was quite bummed (American usage) about the passage of the HCR legislation. She liked the way the US subsidized Canada's system so much, and looked forward to continuing improvements that might help her lifelong health issue. She's fortunate to be in Ontario, where she doesn't have to wait 3 years for a new doctor, but she sure has trouble finding a good one.

One thing Canada does better, though, is approval of new techniques. The FDA is a HUGE roadblock to progress in health care....as we all know from xPAPs.

Re: Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:08 am
by Gondring
Nord wrote: Did you "really" buy the Republican publicity that many Canadians go to the US for HealthCare... Perhaps I can interest you in some swampland that I can sell you in Florida or maybe a bridge that's been hardly used. Most Canadians just laughed. The only Canadians that I know that have gone to the US for HealthCare are the ones that were sent there for treatment and paid for by the Provincial Government or as an exception...



So my Canadian friends have been lying to me? Were they just on vacation in the states?
Nord wrote:Million Dollar athletes who need an operation... yesterday.
All aren't equal?

Paying for better care? Outside the country?!

Re: Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:17 am
by Froro
I would really like to a study on the actual number of Cdn's who TRAVEL to the US for treatment. Proviso, they can not be vacationing and need emergency treatment. I mean actual Cdn's who bypass the Cdn system to travel to the USA.

I'm pretty confident that number would be (not so) shockingly low.

Show me the numbers....(and not something written by the Fox news team please).

ETA: My family (husband, myself, and children) has access to the "best" US facilities (in fact anywhere in the world) for any treatment anytime, fully paid for by his company, no cost to us. We've never found the need to use it. If someday we do? Okay, whatever, it's a nice to have I guess but I can't see us going to the US for treatment "just because" we can. We've never had a problem with our healthcare issues here.

Re: Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:04 am
by akcpapguy
Well I can comment a little on Canadians traveling to the US and Mexico for Healthcare. My father retired in 2000 and they decided to sell everything and move to Texas for the winters. They bought a large (2 bedroom) fifth wheel to travel in and a 2 bedroom trailer home in a retirement park in Texas just miles from the Mexico border. In early 2001 they were approached by another tenanent who asked them if they would be willing to rent out their 5th wheel to people who were visiting for a short time for medical care either in Texas or in Mexico. Since my mom is not of Medicare age yet and them had no retirement healthcare they have to pay out of pocket so they understood the plight of these people.

So starting in Feb 2001 they began renting their 5th wheel out to people who were visiting the area for healthcare. According to my father it was about a 20/80 mix with only 20% Canadians, however over the past 3 years they have seen it flop to where now he said it’s about a 70/30 with the 70% Canadians. They are getting ready to start driving with their motorhome for the summer when I talked to him on Monday and he stated that this will be the second year that he has both the 5th wheel (they purchased a new motorhome to travel in) and the trailer booked up solid until Nov 15th. He further stated that only one of the couples that is booked during that time is American.

So I would agree that if you really got down to things there are many more Canadians than you think traveling outside of Canada for healthcare.

Re: Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:25 am
by Froro
But is it necessary acpapguy? What are the majority of people going down there for? My parents are snow birds and the cost of insurance for them is crazy. Unless it's an absolute emergency they come back to Canada for treatment.

Some interesting things I found after I posted the question.

Study done here at home.

"In a Canadian National Population Health Survey of 17,276 Canadian residents, it was reported that only 0.5% sought medical care in the US in the previous year. Of these, less than a quarter had traveled to the U.S. expressly to get that care."

Full pdf version here. .. http://dsp-psd.communication.gc.ca/Coll ... bout_e.pdf

another
Canadians offered free care in the US paid by the Canadian government have sometimes declined it. In 1990 the British Columbia Medical Association ran radio ads asking, "What's the longest you'd wait in line at a bank before getting really annoyed? Five minutes? Ten minutes? What if you needed a heart operation?" Following this, the government responded, as summarized by Robin Hutchinson, senior medical consultant for the health ministry's heart program. Despite the medically questionable nature of heart bypass for milder cases of chest pain and follow-up studies showing heart bypass recipients were only 25-40% more likely to be relieved of chest pain than people who stay on heart medicine, the "public outcry" following the ads led the government to take action:
"'We did a deal with the University of Washington at Seattle' said Hutchinton..to take 50 bypass cases at $18,000 per head, almost $3,000 higher than the cost in Vancouver, with all the money [paid by] the province..In theory, the Seattle operations promised to take the heat off the Ministry of Health until a fourth heart surgery unit opened in the Vancouver suburb of New Westminster. If the first batch of Seattle bypasses went smoothly..then the government planned to buy three or four more 50-head blocks. But four weeks after announcing the plan, health administrators had to admit they were stumped. 'As of now..we've have nine people sign up. The opposition party, the press, everybody's making a big stink about our waiting lists. And we've got [only] nine people signed up! The surgeons ask their patients and they say, "I'd rather wait," We thought we could get maybe two hundred and fifty done down in Seattle..but if nobody wants to go to Seattle, we're stuck,'".[72
A 2002 study by Katz, Cardiff, et al., reported the number of Canadians using U.S. services to be "barely detectible relative to the use of care by Canadians at home" and that the results "do not support the widespread perception that Canadian residents seek care extensively in the United States."[74]
This last one was only 8 years ago. If anything I've noticed a significant improvement in wait times and such over the last few years.

Anectodatl evidence is one thing, but I would really like to see real actual numbers, and more specifically, what kind of treatments these people are seeking. All I know is according to many in the medical world (including US doctors, my dad should be dead, and should have been more than a decade ago. He has the wierdest, most screwd up body in the world full of bizarre, and rare medical conditions. It's the Cdn, health care system that has kept him alive, by constantly attacking his issues with new and innovative procedures. Has he had to travel from his home to recieve these treatments? well, yes. But I'm pretty sure residents of small towns in the USA have to travel for medical attention as well. (as we've witnessed here on this board)

Re: Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:40 am
by akcpapguy
I don't know what they are searching for in the way of healthcare. My father has commented though that they haven't seen the same people come back too many times of the 9 years they have been doing this. There have been a few repeat customers but not many.

My mom sees an American Dr. in Mexico that also has a clinic in Texas, she pays him $35 a visit and he told my dad that he would have to charge them $215 a visit in Texas to make the same profit margin that he does in Mexico by charging $35.

Re: Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:10 pm
by Nord
roster wrote:
Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians. Breast cancer mortality is 9 percent higher, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher and colon cancer mortality among men is about 10 percent higher than in the United States.


Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians. Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate and colon cancer:

•Nine of 10 middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to less than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).
•Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a pap smear, compared to less than 90 percent of Canadians.
•More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a PSA test, compared to less than 1 in 6 Canadians (16 percent).
•Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with less than 1 in 20 Canadians (5 percent).

Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor."


Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long - sometimes more than a year - to see a specialist, to have elective surgery like hip replacements or to get radiation treatment for cancer. All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada. In England, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.

People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and British adults say their health system needs either "fundamental change" or "complete rebuilding."

Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the "health care system," more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).

Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K. Maligned as a waste by economists and policymakers naïve to actual medical practice, an overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identified computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade. The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans, compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in Canada and Britain.

Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations. The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country. Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined. In only five of the past 34 years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.

Conclusion. Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries.

Will our new healthcare legislation whittle away our comparative advantage?
Isn't it interesting that Roster uses a Headline like "Surprising Facts about American Health Care" to rally all Americans interested in HealthCare (and who on this Board is not ??) to rally around his Anti-Canadian Healthcare rantings. He wants Americans to reject other systems as backward or somehow inferior. Just like always he uses partial truths and selective quotes to make his points... hoping that many Americans will reject other (including Canadian) developed Countries models.

Just read through the diatribe... mostly about how inferior the Canadian Healthcare system is... never mind how many Canadians tell him different. And there are always followers who benefit from the same lack of reasoning. I always look at the writer or speaker and ask myself... how do they benefit ?? What is their bias ??
Just like when a ResMed executive posts positive thinking about his products while using another moniker to "cover" his bias.

There are many more developed Countries following a different Healthcare model than United States model, for good reason.
Apparently, American Healthcare is about to change and will have to drag, kicking and screaming, all those corporations that benefit from the current system
(along with those other people that also profit from not changing)...

Re: Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:51 pm
by dtsm
Definition of 'fact' is whatever "opinion" Rooster holds for the moment. Anytime I see a "Health Care" thread, assume it's Rooster laying another one of his golden eggs.

Re: Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:11 pm
by Nord
Gondring wrote:
Nord wrote:
roster wrote:Go read some history books. Canada once was contributing medical innovations. That all started to dry up decades ago after a socialist medical system was installed.

There are medium sized companies in the U.S. that produce more medical innovation every year than the entire country of Canada produces.

My wishes are that you can change your system and that we can stop our government from destroying the U.S. innovation.
[...] in your free market. (now... there's a misnomer)
Ain't that the truth!
Just like your friend... you miss the point and the quote. You quote Roster in full... and select only part of my quote... to answer me.
I guess that suits your purpose... perhaps you can prove your point by evidence instead of piggy-backing on Roster's quotes.

Like this one... Roster's quote: " My wishes are that you can change your system (Canadian) and that we can stop our government (American Democrats)..." etc... etc...
That... my friend, is the problem.
Roster's ego is so enlarged that he believes that everybody wants to be just like him... and its' just not so.
Perhaps that's what you believe also ??

The point I was making is that Canadian (and other) Healthcare systems "subsidize" American Healthcare,
for example, by training many Medical and Research personnel before they are recruited to American Hospitals and Research facilities through "bigger dollars"...
Roster (and you) seem to think thats OK... maybe in your Free Market, it is, and there should be a cost as there is with professional athletes.

But, your private health care system is designed to: take what you want... discard what you don't want... don't worry about consequences or others.
Come to think of it... its the same model as your Banking and Financial Industry and Natural Resource Industry (oil, coal, forestry, whatever)
You can draw your own conclusions as to sanctity and results of those decisions.
Usually its only a disgrace, if it happens in " your own yard " as opposed to somebody else's...

Nord

Re: Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:28 pm
by Nord
Gondring wrote:
Nord wrote:As regards to your medical innovation... nowadays...
money for "innovation" is spent by Billion dollar medical companies who locate themselves in countries that have lower taxes.
Then how do you explain the US success (nearly highest corporate tax rate in the world--see, for example, http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... tio-1.html)?
That example is "mean" tax rates and does not include tax incentives, write-offs, government grants, market tariffs, access to markets etc... it is certainly not what Billion Dollar Medical Companies pay to do business and innovation. Perhaps you can tell me about a large medical company that does not try to pay the minimum taxes through overall cost... by locating strategically in whatever country thats most advantageous.

I think I've seen the flags and registrations on many corporate ships belonging to small countries in Africa due to legislation, litigation and taxes. Corporations locate themselves and their possessions where it is best for them... not based on an allegiance to any country including America.
To say that " innovation " belongs to the US is like saying " nothing " is produced in China... innovations belong to Corporations. If it really matters.
Does it make you feel better to read... " designed in the USA, made in China, taxes minimized in Bermuda " ??

Nord

Re: Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:44 pm
by Nord
Gondring wrote:
Nord wrote:Surprising that the US was created with the morals of the French Revolution and removing the Class system within its' citizens and yet...
The Healthcare system you defend is all about people belonging to classes of affordability.
You might want to check your world history. The US couldn't have been created with the morals (sic) of the French Revolution (without a time machine, that is). Some of those morals go back millenia earlier... (II Thessalonians 3:10) and were expressed by the leader of the first permanent English settlement in what would become the US: "He who does not work, will not eat."
You " really " have to read carefully...
I didn't say that the American Revolution " followed " the French Revolution.
I said " morals " of the French Revolution and perhaps better words could have been chosen... like theories... popular writings... teachings etc

As quoted from Wikipedia as here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom"[1]) is the belief in the importance of liberty and equality.[2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but most liberals support such fundamental ideas as constitutions, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, free trade, secularism, and the market economy. These ideas are often accepted even among political groups that do not openly profess a liberal ideological orientation. Liberalism encompasses several intellectual trends and traditions, but the dominant variants are classical liberalism, which became popular in the 18th century, and social liberalism, which became popular in the 20th century.

Liberalism first became a powerful force in the Age of Enlightenment, rejecting several foundational assumptions that dominated most earlier theories of government, such as hereditary status, established religion, absolute monarchy, and the Divine Right of Kings. The early liberal thinker John Locke, who is often credited for the creation of liberalism as a distinct philosophical tradition, employed the concept of natural rights and the social contract to argue that the rule of law should replace absolutism in government, that rulers were subject to the consent of the governed, and that private individuals had a fundamental right to life, liberty, and property.

The revolutionaries in the American Revolution and the French Revolution used liberal philosophy to justify the armed overthrow of tyrannical rule, paving the way for the development of modern history in tandem with liberal history. The 19th century saw liberal governments established in nations across Europe, Latin America, and North America. Liberal power increased even further in the 20th century, when liberal democracies triumphed in two world wars and survived major ideological challenges from fascism and communism. Conservatism and fundamentalism, however, remain powerful opponents of liberalism. Today, liberals are organized politically on all major continents. They have played a decisive role in the growth of republics, the spread of civil rights and civil liberties, the establishment of the modern welfare state, the institution of religious toleration and religious freedom, and the development of globalization. To highlight the importance of liberalism in modern life, political scientist Alan Wolfe claimed that "liberalism is the answer for which modernity is the question".[4]

And as you state... much of the thinking in the Age of Enlightenment can be attributed to British Philosophy.
But I really thought that a comparison with the French Revolution and Liberal Philosophy was not only more dramatic for illustration but also more accurate given current thinking related to the esteemed John Locke.

Does that answer your " time machine " question ??

Re: Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:55 pm
by Really
billbolton wrote:A bold claim.... what's your source for it?
LOL you mean others can't just state their opinion as fact like you do? Really??
billbolton wrote: Ranked List (highest is 1) of countries by life expectancy from the World Health Organisation (2005-2010)...
And you do have the link? Really? Care to share it?
"A bold claim.... where is your source for it?"


Keep in mind I never even opened the below threads because they do NOT have ANY affect on me. Really!!

OT Question for our Canadian Posters
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50528&p=464639&hili ... th#p464639

For Canadians, particularly in Ontario
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50351&p=462788&hili ... th#p462788

Canadian CPAP Question
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51615&p=475705&hili ... th#p475705
As a matter of record... Canadians don't "bash" your healthcare or lack of it... it's not in our nature.
and then goes on to bash? Really??

You really just can't resist?? Really??
I thought it was inconsistent with the amount of dollars and what level of healthcare that a lot Americans get aside from the 32?? million people w/o any healthcare.
and then onto politics?
But then I realized that many Republicans and Democrats
- why are so many so interested in US Govt. when it really doesn't affect them? Really?

I am Willing to bet most American have no idea what parties or who rules Canada?? So enlighten us. Really!!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50528&p=464639&hili ... th#p464639

Busy little boy?? Really?
Posts: 487 5.61 posts per day
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 6:30 pm
Location: GTA Canada
Gender: Male

Surprising Facts about American Health Care
As an aside... I think its odd that most of the rest of the world outside the US sees this as a positive step while almost half of Americans do not.
Not bashing it just has an impact on your life? Really??


and more
search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&keywords=%2Bh ... r_id=47870


ps. I wonder why so many complain about the cost of shipping from other countries to Canada? Really?

Why do you think it's so costly?? Is it the Republicans or the Democrats??

Re: Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:12 pm
by Nord
Gondring wrote:
Nord wrote:I guess its not so strange if you belong to the upper class to make medical help immediate...
and have insurance that is welcomed just like your MasterCard.
Well, my tax dollars go toward caring for many who are choosing not to get health insurance (you can buy it yourself, you know), and even those who are criminals....and I greatly welcome your offer to pay for them yourself (your criticism does imply a willingness to pay...or do you just advocate spending the money of others?). It would be a huge burden off working Americans. Thank you.
That's exactly my point... you are choosing who gets health care and who doesn't.
That, my friend is a class system... who decides who gets the best care... the wealthy, the powerful, government ??
You have so many " rights " as Americans...
You think education is a right... how is that so different than medical help ??
There are countries that believe that healthcare, access to legal system, child daycare etc are a right...
because they important to most citizens for fairness and productivity (work).

You also seem to imply that " working Americans " are better off now.
Does that include the man working two jobs at minimum wage, supporting a family and can't afford regular health care ??
Your argument is all about greed... you are afraid it will cost you more but it already does.

Nord