CPAPtalk.com

It took me awhile to find the link. Sorry for the delay. I personally still think it's prudent to clean mine about once per week. And I also remember an article saying something about water vapor molecules grouping together, in which case they "could" piggyback some of the nasties, but I'm not sure if that is common or not.

Cheers,
BP

[quote="snowloft"]I must say that the reception and my first experiences in this particular thread from a couple people have really been nasty. It certainly makes me hesitate to want to chime in on other topics.

I looked at the followup on your cnn post and saw nothing of a nasty reply.
I pointed out the innacuracy of anyone making a connection of the risks of a cold air humidifier and a heated one.
A couple of people seem to make ad hominen attacks, but nothing I saw was directed to you.

I pointed out the innacuracy of anyone making a connection of the risks of a cold air humidifier and a heated one.

The heated humidifier in a CPAP unit is, essentially, a COLD humidifier because it is not bringing the water up to boiling. CPAP humidifiers have a heating element UNDER the water tank that warms the water, but does not boil it into vapour.

True HEATED humidifiers use a process called "film evaporation" in which a water tank supplies water to an evaporation chamber which has a heating element IN (not under) the chamber. This heating element gets hot and actually boils off a thin 'film' of water on the top surface of the element. If you looked in this tank, you would not see a 'rolling boil' like you do in your kettle (which has a big element) but you would see a small amount of bubbling/steaming at the edge of the element.

These units usually have a removeable water tank with a one-way valve mechanism so that when you place the water tank on the unit, the valve opens and water flows into the evaporation chamber. In this way, the level of water in the chamber is always just slightly above the element, allowing the film evaporation process to work.

These HEATED units kill nasties at the point where the water is boiled off into vapour.

The heated humidifier in our CPAP units is simply warmed water, not boil evaporated.

Your comment about "the inaccuracy of anyone making a connection of the risks of a cold air humidifier and a heated one" would be right IF anyone was making that connection. But no one is. We refer to our CPAP humidifiers as 'heated,' which they are, but they are most assuredly NOT heating the water enough to kill anything that may be in the water. As such, the cautions that apply regarding cold humidifiers fully apply to the CPAP heated humidifiers that we use. In fact, these cautions may apply even more as nasties prefer a warm environment -ever wondered why you have to put so much chemical into your hot-tub? Now you know. Admittedly, we are not putting our germ-laden body in our CPAP humidifiers, so there is significantly less nastiness getting into the tank however, the process is the same.

There is nothing (neither adequate heat nor appropriate chemical) to kill whatever is in our CPAP humidifier tank and, as such, it is a welcoming environment (warm and wet) for things to grow. I suspect that there are other documentations connected with the link (earlier in this thread) about things not growing in the humidifier tank also says to dump the tank daily.

So, talk all you want about 'science,' but compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. Our CPAP humidifiers are warm, not boiling, and provide a good environment for nasties to grow. If our humidifiers boiled the water into vapour, or had chemical added to kill nasties, they would not be a good environment in which nasties could grow. This is both science and common sense.

As I have said before, each of us needs to do what is best in his or her own mind. Argueing about this is pointless as it makes no difference either way. The important thing is that users, especially new users, get lots of info; this thread has certainly provided that.

We may be dealing with semantics here WS.
The contrast in the warm air vs cold air- by which I mean any device that causes the physical breakup of water into droplets that are then sent into the room and the evaporative such as in the cpap.
Pathogens may be readily spread by the droplets, but not the cpap. The pathogens simply cannot attach themselves to the vapor.
In a sense, a heated vs a passive is a matter of degree. Both will cause vapor to be realease, but it is a function of temperature that affects the rato of vapor production.
even frozen water and other will give off vapor- Freezer burns is such an example. If the pressure is low enough, Ice will skip the liquid phase and go directly into the air.
For the most part we are saying the same thing.
Go back and look at the posting of the graphic. It shows that pathogens do not grow in a cpap chamber. no nutrients. If there, they may remain in suspended status, but cannot proliferate in the absence of nutrients. In any event they cannot get into the air above the chamber.

Will trade science lessons for psychotherapy.
I keep having the haunting feelings that all the paranoids are out to get me. I know they are talking about me. What do I do?
If you want to get into a real contrentious area, let me vent on shrinks I have known.

My sister is a shrink. IMHO they need therapy more than their patients!

rock and roll wrote:My sister is a shrink. IMHO they need therapy more than their patients!

Usually that is because of the truama inflicted upon them in their childhood by their siblings.

It shows that pathogens do not grow in a cpap chamber. no nutrients

Perhaps it is a matter of semantics, perhaps not entirely. I agree with your comments about water doing different things at different temperatures and pressures such as ice skipping the liquid stage and going right to vapour if the pressure is low enough etc., etc.
Here is my point:
IF there were no nutrients in the CPAP humidifier chamber, then there would be little to no growth. However, the water we are adding to the chamber is not sterile, neither is the chamber. Further, the process of heating the water via the hot plate under the tank does NOTHING to reduce or eliminate any pathogen that might be in the tank and, in fact, provides a warm environment that is good for any pathogen that MIGHT be in the tank. Giving the chamber a wash and rinse does not sterilize it.
Lots of people have their CPAP on the floor and don't make use of a hepa quality filter on the machines' air intake. The possibility of sucking in pathogens, dust mites, bits of skin that we have sloughed off (it's all around us, no mater how clean our homes are) etc., etc., is pretty good. Anything sucked in is going to end up in the humidifier tank and/or the users' lungs. Over the course of time, the water in the tank, if just topped up daily, is going to get contaminated and, given that it is not being boiled into vapour, stuff can, and will, grow. After all, dust mites, etc., do, over the course of time, die/rot and become nutrients for nasties in the tank.

Having said all of this, to me it just plain makes sense to dump the tank, let it dry out, and put in only what you need for the night. It also makes sense to be cleaning the tank periodically (I do it weekly) and, have a hepa-quality filter on the intake of your CPAP machine. So, tomjax, you are the scientist -> am I REALLY wrong about this and making no sense at all?

I still believe that folk should absolutely do whatever feels best to them. For me, it makes sense to never invite the devil through my door; I'll keep dumping the tank.

As an aside, I had horrible allergies for years and had a hell of a time sleeping (stuffy nose) no matter what I did relative to air cleaners, vacuumed bed, non-allergenic detergents, mattress covers, etc. When I started with CPAP, things were just as bad. When I put a hepa-quality filter in my CPAP machine and washed out the hose/tank/mask, all sins were magically forgiven -no more stuffy nose and I sleep all night.

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): cpap machine, humidifier, hose, CPAP

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): cpap machine, humidifier, hose, CPAP

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): cpap machine, humidifier, hose, CPAP, clean

Grabraham wrote:

Usually that is because of the truama inflicted upon them in their childhood by their siblings.

Boy! There is a mouthful!! LOL. I have always suspected that my older brothers were the cause of the winter of my discontent!

Other way around, my friends, other way around

R & R wrote:

Other way around, my friends, other way around

You figure that it is the trauma that the young shrink-to-be inflicts on his or her siblings? Not possible, I say. Not Possible!
Although, I suspect that my sibs, and most certainly my mom, would agree with you. LOL!!

Okay, you guys are going to drive me CRAZY!!!!!

My sister phycoanyhlizes everything you say but she has her own set of issues that are way worse than mine. I have met all her peers and assistants and partners and such over the years and they are the same way.

Now, I am not claiming no fault here you understand but I am not the one trained and educated for this. She always has an issue going with some member of the family. Thankfully, she lives a long way from me in Utah.

Siblings must affect us in the early years. I am just as happy as if I were in my right mind and this drives my sisters crazy.

I don't contribute to their insanity in anyway.

crazyone wrote:Okay, you guys are going to drive me CRAZY!!!!!

Now, that is quite an assertion from a person named crazyone!!!!

I gotta think about that one.

rock and roll wrote:My sister is a shrink. IMHO they need therapy more than their patients!

I am of the opinion that shrinks do not belong in science, much less in medicine.
Let moi qualify that. SOME conditions and techniques are very helpful and can be of great benefit to a troubled person,
The probems start when they make an assessment. This is worse than a guess in most cases.
Their concern is more for the integrity of their system than for the benefit and rights of the individual.
My assessments were pure BS. Pure BS!!
spend a year with a real shrink to establish this. COuple with with their diety comples and strange things happen.
My case is posted over at another forum.
I even started writing my"BOOK" until I discovered I was not a writer.
I had the name- "Nightmare in Shrinksville" and wsa a narrative of this nightmare.
These bastards are powerful. One example was the shrink who testified at my hearing that he had experience with 7 or 8 individuals with sleep apnea.
He was asked if he would expect daytime drowsiness to occur in an individual with OSA. He replied that he would not.
The sleep lab doc disagreed. The hearing officer noted that the shrink was more credible.
License revoked- Go ye therefore to treatment center and be cured. CUred of WHAT?
I was at the Masters once at a party which included a lot of shrinks- the cousin married one in med school and all his buddies came. This was scary.
You should have seen what happened when one had a few drinks and wanted to rip another one's toupe off. Even more scary when she told about all the secrets of the wives of them.
Real scary!!!