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Posted: **Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:17 pm**

DreamStalker wrote:
Mindy2 wrote:
DreamStalker wrote: Congrats on the significant weight loss. If I were you I would still continue to get your A1c test for another year or two and not just take your sergeon's word for it (I suppose you are already doing that).

Check out this blog that may be of interest to you. It has an entry about weight loss surgery and diabetes.

Hi there, DreamStalker!

Yes, I do still check glucose with finger stick every week and plan to continue haveing A1c checked every year (I'm cautious!)
Thanks for the link - very interesting. I have long been on a low carb diet and although it kept me from regaining, I was only able to lose about 5-10 lbs per year. Since I have a medical problem that was expected to result in end-stage disease within 5 years, I took the calculated risk of surgery. By NIH standards, I don't know of any doctors who would perform gastric bypass on someone with a BMI under 35 (and insurance wouldn't pay for it). In fact they won't do it for a BMI under 40 unless the person has one or more of a specific set of comorbidities that are serious.

Now about that link: it makes some valid points but there are also a number of half-truths and inaccuracies. For one, the author mixes info about traditional Roux-en-Y gastric bypass and the gastric band. I had the former and there are far fewer follow-on surgeries with this surgery than with gastric banding. This surgery has been around for a number of years and has a pretty good history. If one doesn't regain the weight (and yes, it can happen), then the type 2 diabetes is not known to come back. With gastric banding, type 2 diabetes reduction is more likely due to the weight loss resulting from the surgery. With Roux-en-Y, it's the duodenum/length of small intestine that results in a very rapid change. There are long-term registries and most if not all bariatric surgery practices insist that their patients return very year for a checkup. Also, since I work on cost-effectiveness analyses, I can say for sure that the info on pay-back is seriously flawed! Cost-effectiveness is commonly computed as cost of treatment divided by additional years of life adjusted for quality of life.

On another subject, MoneyGal -- carbs are sometimes referred to as "refined" (eg white flour) or "unrefined" (eg whole wheat flour) and are further defined as “good carbs” and “bad carbs”. We all need carbs as fuel – you’d get very tired without carbs. However, “bad carbs” will promote weight gain and poor health. “Bad carbs” included refined flour, all sodas, etc. Especially bad are things like high-fructose corn syrup. A small amount of regular sugar is usually not considered bad. All foods are made up of fat, protein and carbs. Fresh fruit has no fat and no protein and is made up of “good” carbs. Vegetables are generally in the same category but this does not include legumes (beans, lentils, split peas). Legumes have protein and carbs. Meat and eggs contain protein and fat.
On my 1200 calorie per day eating plan, I’m supposed to eat 60-80 grams of protein, 100-120 grams of “good” carbs and the rest fat.
Hope that helps a little.

Mindy2 (who is really Mindy)
Good that you are staying monitored. I also hope you posted your comments about half-truths on that bolg site so that others reading it are made aware.

I have to disagree with you on the good carbs bad carbs comments. If you read previous posts in this thread, I attempted to explain that all carbs become glucose once in the blood system and consequently are treated the same by the body regardless of whether they are refined or whole ("bad" or "good") ... at least as far as weight loss is concerned. For diabetics, refined vs. whole does make a difference but they too are better off eliminating them altogether. Basically the unrefined (whole) carbs enter the blood stream slower but nevertheless, the same amount of insulin is required to regulate the resulting blood sugar from an unrefined as a refined ... just the duration or time it take to regulate it is different. To burn fat out of storage, one has to keep total insulin "amount" down ... whether it occurs slowly or fast makes no difference ... it is the total amount that matters for fat loss. Therefore, for fat loss, ALL carbs are bad.

If however, you are not fat or have no desire to lose fat, then have your carbs and eat'em too.

Secondly, we do not need carbs. Our bodies are designed to make all necessary carb byproducts (like glucose and glycogen) from dietary protein. The only cells in the body that need blood sugar glucose are red blood cells ... all other cells of the body can burn ketones made from fats. Furthermore, most vegetables have small amounts of carbs that the body can use. So our bodies metabolize proteins into any extra needed sugar for our red blood cells and into any extra glycogen needs to replenish glycogen stores that is not provided from vegetables. In fact the body could survive on just meat and fat alone if it had to ... although it is not recommended since vegetables provide lots of other micro-nutrients essential for good health. In other words, carbs are not an essential nutrient as many have been led to believe by dietitians and nutritionists. Our bodies are designed to run on fat as a fuel source.

The reason some get a feeling of fatigue, headaches, and other bad symptoms when removing carbs from their diet is because they are experiencing withdrawal from the carb addiction. It only lasts a few days to a couple of weeks after first eliminating carbs from the diet ... until the body is able to adapt to burning fat again just like it is supposed to. Once the body has adapted to fat for energy, fatigue and bad symptoms go away ... at least until you reintroduce carbs and then you have to go back through the withdrawal period again if you want to get off carbs again.

@ MoneyGal ... what ozij says ... except stop bread too.

As far as bread goes-theres lite whole wheat out there thats 7 carbs per slice

Posted: **Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:47 pm**

[quote="grady61]
As far as bread goes-theres lite whole wheat out there thats 7 carbs per slice[/quote]

Yes but what other crap has been added, can you pronounce it? The idea of Whole wheat is is whole wheat. I f I am going to eat whole wheat I will go to the bakery down sthe street that makes Whole wheat with real whole wheat and maybe some other whole grains added to make it a multi grain.
If you're going to fall of the wagon at least do it with quality stuff that has other nutrients in it that are good for you.

As far is fruit is concerned there is more to fruit (and vegetables) then sugars and carbs as many a pioneer in the North has discovered when their cohorts started dying off of scurvy.

Posted: **Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:12 pm**

BlackSpinner wrote:...If you're going to fall of the wagon at least do it with quality stuff that has other nutrients in it that are good for you...

My thoughts exactly! Sears of the Zone plan, suggests a high carb meal periodically like once a month to remind yourself how bad you feel after eating a lot of carbs...frankly, when I was eating a la the Zone, that periodic high-carb meal took care of any cravings that might have reared up to consume me, like chocolate or whole seeded rye. If passing by those yummy breads is impossible, maybe you can limit it to once a wk and then eat it as if it were the last thing you were ever going to eat...ya know, take it to a quiet place, enjoy the sight, savor the smell, enjoy the texture & sound of biting into it, the taste, the aftertaste. Close your eyes to fully indulge those other senses. I learned to do this with chocolate to be able to eat one small piece and derive enormous satisfaction from literally becoming one with it

Posted: **Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:43 pm**

BlackSpinner wrote:[

falling off the wagon? Ive done fine with the lite whole wheat. Do I limit it? yes. Am I going to drive 9 miles to a bakery for a loaf of bread? nope.

Posted: **Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:39 pm**

Brand new to the forum. Been a CPAP user for about 7 years now. Had surgery to correct the cause but it was not successful. The doctor said I should lose weight and it would alleviate the problem of the apnea.....well, I was way thinner and still had the issue before the surgery and still had the issue. Over the course of a few years, I have gained even more weight and tried many times to begin a diet. Tried Nutri-system and some fad diets. So far the one that has worked best for me has been Weight Watchers. You can eat anything you want on WW, you just must account for it and track it and stay within your points allotment. Since mid October, I have lost 20 pounds and have 40 to go. Made it through Thanksgiving and Christmas with weight losses averaging 1-1.5 pounds per week which experts say is about how much you want to loose to be successful in keeping it off.

Every diet and suggestion made here will work, but it is after the diet that is the issue. With WW, there is no after the diet, because you are adopting a lifestyle change and making new habits. I use my iphone to track my intake and points but you can use pen and paper, or track on line. You can go to meetings (very helpful and not expensive) or you can join on line. I go out to eat, and travel for a living to places with great food and I have eaten that food and still lose weight every week...........It can be done..........you can do it!

Posted: **Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:59 pm**

Just wanted to mention I did finally watch the "FAT: What No One Is Telling You" program, and I thought it was very worthwhile. It doesn't tout any particular program or approach or, really, weight loss at all. Rather, it's a discussion of personal experiences and research that have shown how complex and variable the whole process of eating, satiation, and weight loss or gain really is. One part that stuck with me was when one of the researchers said that the reason no one thing seems to work for weight loss is because one's weight is not established by any one thing: It's a combination of history (feast or famine), heredity, socialization, and more.

When describing how hard the body fights weight change, he compared telling people that all it takes is willpower to lose weight to telling someone to sprint up six flights of stairs and then use willpower to avoid breathing rapidly. You can do it temporarily, but no matter how strong your willpower is, your body will take over and force you to do what it wants -- breathe rapidly. The new research is starting to focus on why some people's bodies want to store more fat and force the bodies' owners to eat more and conserve energy in order to do that. even to an obviously unhealthy degree.

I would highly recommend watching it if you have the chance. Once again, the link is http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/takeonestep/fat ... ch_01.html

Posted: **Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:27 pm**

ozij wrote:Hey Mindy, great to see you again. I'm glad your healing from the surgery is going well - good luck with the other problems.

MonyeGal --
A useful list of what is and what is not a carb containing food can be found here:

http://blogg.passagen.se/dahlqvistannik ... d_manifest

I read Good Calories Bad Calories in March or April of 2009 and was convinced:
Eliminated all sugar from tea and coffee (if you're a person who takes lot of sugar in those drinks, you can try to reduce the amount gradually -and then the move from 1/2 a teaspoon to non is not that dramatic).

Stopped eating:
Potatoes
Rice
Pasta
Cakes and cookies
Fruit Juices
Reduced bread to something like 2 or 4 slices on some weeks, at most. Full grain.

Started eating far more:
Eggs
Mayonnaise
Butter
Cheeses
Olive Oil
Nuts and almonds
Some more: fish, (and canned tuna) and poultry.

I'm not diabetic nor pre-diabetic. I still start each day with a banana, and probably eat 1 or 2 other friuts too. (an apple with cheese and nuts is a real treat for me). I did not eat grapes in the summer.

I don't make a religion of it. I made myself a promise years ago that I will never deny myself any food if I want it, and I don't. (I recommend "When women stop hating their bodies" by Jane R. Hirschmann and Carol H. Munter and Susie Orbach On Eating). Binges result from the cravings caused by carbs, but also from a feeling of "its now or never". Setting up a trusting relationship with yourself / your body is crucial.

Dropping the carbs was not difficult for me -- perhaps because I've never been a carb addict. My cold drink of choice has been water for many years.

My sense of hunger between meals changed dramatically.

And, as a real side effect, I lost weight - I did not change my eating in order to loose weight -- but I did.

O.

Hi Ozij,

Great comments, as usual! One note about potatoes: there is apparently a significant difference in how white potatoes affect the body compared to sweet potatos/yams. The latter aren't high-glycemic index foods.

Dreamstalker, sorry - I didn't read all of the comments in depth (color me red). It has always been my understanding that some carbs are necessary and that it's high carbs/high glycemic index that's the problem.

And btw, I just got lab results today that show that now multiple nasty health conditions have cleared up in the 3 months since gastric bypass (all related to metabolic syndrome). So that leaves me with only very minimal health conditions at long last!

Mindy

Posted: **Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:56 pm**

mindy wrote:<snip> ...
Dreamstalker, sorry - I didn't read all of the comments in depth (color me red). It has always been my understanding that some carbs are necessary and that it's high carbs/high glycemic index that's the problem.

And btw, I just got lab results today that show that now multiple nasty health conditions have cleared up in the 3 months since gastric bypass (all related to metabolic syndrome). So that leaves me with only very minimal health conditions at long last!

Mindy

Well ... sorry about that too.

Congrats on your results though!

Hope you get that last of those conditions under control.

Posted: **Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:40 pm**

DreamStalker wrote:
mindy wrote:<snip> ...
Dreamstalker, sorry - I didn't read all of the comments in depth (color me red). It has always been my understanding that some carbs are necessary and that it's high carbs/high glycemic index that's the problem.

And btw, I just got lab results today that show that now multiple nasty health conditions have cleared up in the 3 months since gastric bypass (all related to metabolic syndrome). So that leaves me with only very minimal health conditions at long last!

Mindy
Well ... sorry about that too.

Congrats on your results though!

Hope you get that last of those conditions under control.

Dreamstalker,

I finally got caught up and read the posts -- not all the links but I did link to Gary Taubes' video. I saw him at a Medical Grand Rounds where I work, within the past 18 months or so and think he's got a lot on the ball! I have his book but now need to find time to read it

Back in the 1950s, when they first started pushing margarine with trans fats as being better than butter, my father (a paint and oils chemist) told us that margarine was really bad for us because of trans fats whereas butter in moderation was fine. And look how many years it took for the rest of the world to catch up!

I'd like to add one additional comment to the issue of glucose curves depending on low and high glycemic index: when we eat a low glycemic index food, not only does blood sugar spike higher, faster, but it also drops precipitously. That drop, in some people, results in eating more to get rid of that hypoglycemic shakiness and thus it can become a vicious cycle and then will contribute more to weight gain. The only bread I eat is Ezekiel frozen bread which is very dense, and even then I only eat 1-2 slices per week, max. I think it makes perfect sense that too many carbs result in weight gain but don't think that Gary Taubes was saying to not eat any carbs ... just to limit them.

Mindy

Posted: **Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:01 pm**

kteague wrote: Eating poorly is not "falling off the wagon" or "going off my diet" or "treating myself". Can't clean it up or dress it up. It is self abuse. And it's not acceptable.

Kathy,

Mind if I quote this in my BTVC-SCD Forum?

Posted: **Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:16 pm**

Kiralynx wrote:
kteague wrote: Eating poorly is not "falling off the wagon" or "going off my diet" or "treating myself". Can't clean it up or dress it up. It is self abuse. And it's not acceptable.
Kathy,

Mind if I quote this in my BTVC-SCD Forum?

Kathy and Kira,

I find that very harsh. It reminds me of quitting smoking -- which I finally did 16 years ago. Some people are much more seriously addicted than others and "buck up" and "just do it" make great slogans but there are events that can effectively "re-wire" the brain, resulting in sometimes impossible odds against doing something we need to do. It took me 20 years to quit and many, many false starts. I wouldn't call it easy by any stretch (and we didn't have the drugs that are now available). My hat's off to anyone who quits smoking, drinking, drugs, or manages to stay on a diet or deals with any kind of "bad habit".

Mindy

Posted: **Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:37 pm**

mindy wrote:
Kiralynx wrote:
kteague wrote: Eating poorly is not "falling off the wagon" or "going off my diet" or "treating myself". Can't clean it up or dress it up. It is self abuse. And it's not acceptable.
Kathy,

Mind if I quote this in my BTVC-SCD Forum?
Kathy and Kira,

I find that very harsh. It reminds me of quitting smoking -- which I finally did 16 years ago.

Mindy

I disagree. Part of every addiction problem is self delusion. Wrapping things up pretty when they are not. Pretending things are ok. Eating badly is self abuse and it is a very positive statement. It means that I am looking at myself in a positive light, that I am not willing to abuse my body with crap anymore, that I am doing this new way of eating for me, myself and I. Not so I can look good in a meat market bikini or as someones wall paper but because I care deeply about myself. Until you can do it for your self nothing will stick, it is an imposed life style. As soon as the discpline imposed by others is gone, the eating habits go out the window because you are not doing it for yourself.

Posted: **Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:58 pm**

mindy wrote:Kathy and Kira,

I find that very harsh. It reminds me of quitting smoking -- which I finally did 16 years ago. Some people are much more seriously addicted than others and "buck up" and "just do it" make great slogans but there are events that can effectively "re-wire" the brain, resulting in sometimes impossible odds against doing something we need to do. It took me 20 years to quit and many, many false starts. I wouldn't call it easy by any stretch (and we didn't have the drugs that are now available). My hat's off to anyone who quits smoking, drinking, drugs, or manages to stay on a diet or deals with any kind of "bad habit".

Mindy,

In point of fact, I'm intensely aware of how hard rewiring your brain for anything like an eating style change is.

For the last 33 years, I've gotten, "Well, if you would just stop stuffing your face and lose some weight, it (whatever IT is) will clear up."

It has been my IBS. (solved by going on the Specific Carbohydrate Diet)

It has been the muscle spasms in my back from a bad fall. (Solved by finding a supplement which prevents the spasms.)

It has been my hip pain. (Solved by finding out I had sleep apnea and properly treating same.)

IT has been my cancer. Yes, I was actually told by my now-former PCP that the symptoms of my uterine cancer would go away if I lost weight. I found another doctor, and the recommendation was surgery, not weight loss.

My Mom wanted to weigh 115 pounds. She was 5'3" tall and that wouldn't have been a bad weight for her. But she was convinced that if I weighed 130 pounds at 5' 6", I was much, much too fat, and she harassed me about it, over and over and over.

I chose the SCD, and I am eating that way. Failure to eat that way has profound negative consequences, like finding myself at work, in a store, and suddenly having feces running down my legs -- and I can neither leave the floor to clean up, or properly help any customers. Not eating SCD means I subject myself to all manner of negative events -- events which could have been prevented -- and that is, indeed, self-abuse.

I battle daily with self-hatred because I'm still obese. Sure, I've lost 180 pounds, but I'm still FAT. And FAT is about the only human condition which hasn't been PC'd. Fat jokes are rampant -- but if you substituted the N word, people of that ethnic extraction would be up in arms. In fact, if you substituted any of the many ethnicities which have been referred to in a derogatory manner, people would be up in arms. But FAT is "Why can't they just control themselves?"

I get "Quit stuffing your face, and try getting a little exercise... like pushing yourself away from the table."

The only way I can deal with it is because I know that I am eating in a healthy manner, a manner which will keep me healthy whether or not I ever lose the remaining 100 pounds.

To not follow SCD, knowing what I know about my body, would be as abusive as not wearing my mask every night. Both would be just plain wrong.

Posted: **Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:00 pm**

Kira,Thank you for sharing this but I noticed one glaring omission. Your post has 12 paragraphs(I counted them) but you only used 4 words(I counted those too) to describe your AMAZING 180 pound weight loss. Please be proud of yourself for that accomplishment through extremely difficult times and be grateful that you've now found a lifestyle that's healthy for you. You're a strong woman.

Posted: **Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:31 pm**

BlackSpinner wrote:
mindy wrote:
Kiralynx wrote:
kteague wrote: Eating poorly is not "falling off the wagon" or "going off my diet" or "treating myself". Can't clean it up or dress it up. It is self abuse. And it's not acceptable.
Kathy,

Mind if I quote this in my BTVC-SCD Forum?
Kathy and Kira,

I find that very harsh. It reminds me of quitting smoking -- which I finally did 16 years ago.

Mindy
I disagree. Part of every addiction problem is self delusion. Wrapping things up pretty when they are not. Pretending things are ok. Eating badly is self abuse and it is a very positive statement. It means that I am looking at myself in a positive light, that I am not willing to abuse my body with crap anymore, that I am doing this new way of eating for me, myself and I. Not so I can look good in a meat market bikini or as someones wall paper but because I care deeply about myself. Until you can do it for your self nothing will stick, it is an imposed life style. As soon as the discpline imposed by others is gone, the eating habits go out the window because you are not doing it for yourself.

Dang girl ... I was really looking forward to getting myself a new bikini wall paper for my monitor.

Yep, my turning point was the week I was diagnosed with OSA. I realized then that I had to take better care of myself. I just didn't know how so I began researching and found this forum. Have not looked back since and I now feel 20 years younger than when I found this place. That youthful vigor that brought me back from the living dead is what I use to leverage myself from "falling off the wagon" or "wrapping things up pretty when they are not" or pretending that cheating just a little bit is ok. At my age, time is running short, I have to make the best of what I have left. Still researching and still optimizing my health. No time to dilly dally with "lite" bread.

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