CPAPtalk.com

Words never make the man or reveal the heart, so much as actions and ideas do.

I would say: Spelling never makes the man nor reveals the heart, so much as actions and ideas do.

May I just say that personally I like BOTH statements and that I do not read the second as so much a "correction" of the first but see it simply as a slightly different point?

I think the "so much as" makes the original wording such that it needs no wiggle room. (Although, if I were writing it, I might leave out the comma in order to prevent the misread that the thought 'words never reveal the heart' could stand alone. As a respected orator is quoted as saying, 'out of the heart's abundance the mouth speaks.' )

Jnk, truth be told I love your version and I love ozij's version.

I think subtle nuances in writing often reflect subtle nuances in who we are and how we perceive the world.

And I have been blessed to explore both abstractions and empiricisms with ozij's razor-sharp mind for years now. But it's that kind and generous soul that makes her my good friend.

-SWS,

Those discussions are fun to read, too.

One thing I admire about the posts made by you, ozij, and so many others on this board is that it is both what you say and how you say it that combine so well into a form of very powerful action.

As always, I am never disappointed in the eclecticism of this group.

I very much enjoy each individual attempt to describe the
color and texture of the light between black and white.

For me, it brings into focus the root of my frustration.
The first began w/the presentation by the certified RT/director of the
sleep ctr. Her misleading explanations and incorrect use of terms
quit simply piss me off.
Second is the parade of alleged RTs that appear here, seeking our
help....when in reality, most are here to promote themselves.
ApriaRT
Strapparatus
Mike@someDMEinUT
superfollowupRTguy
POLYPSYCHOGUY

Where are they now???

Third is my own DME experience when I started my therapy.
I was being fleeced and mislead by the Big A and had to fight
for my equipment, just like the stories we encounter here, everyday.

I have a hugh chip on my shoulder toward these people.
As I have admitted before, I am a militant 'pap'er.
My first reaction, competent writing skills, or not, is: get a rope.

-SWS wrote:The heart can only be revealed as that making-of-the-man process occurs.

I need to temper that reaction.

A man is in the water.
He waves to me,
Shouts words I do not understand.
He shouts again,
Waves more vigorously.
I move closer not understanding.
He sinks beneath the surface.
I am uncertain.
His words were not clear.
I wait for his reappearance,
To ask if I can help.
Moments pass,
He does not return.
I move on,
Not knowing what his question was.

We all have very different ability levels. If I were to write something in Chinese -- no one would be able to read it -- period!! I have no understanding of the language. It is funny, when going to college to get my teaching degree, we were required to take one semester of another language. The two offered at the local junior college were French and Spanish. I opted for the Spanish (we have a large population of Mexican and Hispanics here). I frustrated the teacher to no end. I couldn't not speak it -- no matter what I did I simply couldn't master it. More than once she kept me after class to "discuss this matter with me." What frustrated her was that I could write and read it and did well on it. In fact, I earned an A in the class overall. I think part of the problem is that I don't hear all the sounds in verbal speech. Never have. I have had speech therapy, to no avail. Some sounds are worse than others. Had my hearing checked and it was fine. My speech is good and vocabulary is good -- just have trouble with words such sink, library, public, etc. Maybe it was growing up in a household of siblings that DID have significant speech deficits and I picked it up from them.

I learned to read with the site word method -- way back when. I think I would have struggled with reading if I had to learn using the phonics method and probably would have been one of those that fell behind.

Should I be judged simply because I may mispronounce a few words? Should I be shunned? Should I be thrown to the wolves?

That is why I do not judge people if their writing skills on a forum lack proper usage and grammatical errors. If I am reading a professional journal and then yes, I expect correct grammar and spelling.

I am by trade a proofreader and writer, so I do get twitchy when I encounter grammatical and spelling errors. I can't help it; even when reading a novel, much to my irritation. (Example: I keep tripping over "so much as" in this thread. It's AS much as. ) Minding them is something else, though. I usually don't -- except for my own, that is. On the other hand, if it's REALLY bad -- which includes a person's words being way over AND way under my head -- it gets in the way of understanding what the person's trying to say. So I think it's a matter of degree. And sometimes a person uses words (sometimes consciously, sometimes not) to keep others at arms' length. Words are such a powerful tool, but I think how we wield that tool has to do with too many things to make a reliable judgment... not only education or intelligence, for example, but also a person's primary personality type. Detail-oriented people generally have fewer grammatical or spelling errors simply because they're hard-wired to pay attention to details, so they should actually get fewer points for a well-worded sentence than those who don't come by that trait naturally.

I've been hanging around here for almost a year (incredible!) and have often had a thought that I never expressed. This seems like the perfect time: I've been part of the hiring process for proofreaders and writers here at work. A four-year college degree in English is required. However, the GREAT majority of people who post to this forum have a MUCH better grasp of the English language -- both in communicating it and in doing it with technical correctness -- than those who have submitted most of the resumes that I've read. I mean (and I know I'm on my soapbox now; apologies), if you were applying for a PROOFREADING job, wouldn't you make VERY sure that your resume and cover letter were letter-perfect????? I can say with certainty that an honest answer from nine out of ten who have applied at our bureau would be a resounding NO!! I don't get it, and I'll never get it.

Carbonman, I'm with you to a point. The ones that are truly horrible certainly get under my skin, too, to the point of my tuning the writer out. But that is certainly the exception here, in my opinion, and not the rule. So HUGE kudos to everyone in our beloved forum on their great writing skills and excellent communication skills.

Marsha

Folks, I can't keep this to myself.....

In his typically kind way, Jeff/jnk quietly sent this to me:

jnk wrote:For negative comparison, "so . . . as" is considered acceptable English. In fact, old-school proofreaders often consider the use of "as . . . as" to be incorrect in negative comparisons. So -SWS's use of "never" would make many proofreaders change "as . . . as" to "so . . . as" had he written it "as . . . as" after using "never."

As I said to Jeff, I did not know that and am glad to have learned it. I sit -- happily -- corrected.

Marsha (who's now slightly less twitchy)

Example: I keep tripping over "so much as" in this thread. It's AS much as.

That really IS technically correct now that you mention it, Marsha. Jeff's comment gives my conscious mind credit when that was really my subconscious mind vaguely selecting that word for an aesthetic sound.

Moral of the story: It can take just as many cpaptalk proofreaders to straighten out a sentence as it takes <insert favorite characters> to change a light bulb.

Hey, I was just trying to get my resume moved higher up in the stack!

But now that I'm outed, here is the non-rule:

The American Heritage® Book of English Usage.
A Practical and Authoritative Guide to Contemporary English. 1996.
1. Grammar: Traditional Rules, Word Order, Agreement, and Case

as … as versus so … as. A traditional usage rule draws a distinction between comparisons using as … as and comparisons using so … as. The rule states that the so … as construction is required in negative sentences (as in Shakespeare’s “’tis not so deep as a well”), in questions (as in Is it so bad as she says?), and in certain if clauses (as in If it is so bad as you say, you ought to leave). But this so … as construction is becoming increasingly rare in American English, and the use of as … as is now entirely acceptable in all contexts

I have never been into poetry or self inflection through writing, but I thought this may change the tone to a little less serious.

The One Millionth English word was just inducted into the dictionary.......Web 2.0
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525653,00.html

Absolutely! The way we express ourselves verbally speaks volumes. If one cannot describe his thoughts in cogent sentences, why would we assume he's capable of forming valid opinions from data found elsewhere?

If one consistently makes grammar and spelling errors it implies one of two things: he doesn't know better; or he doesn't care. Either way it degrades the perceived value of his thoughts.

We all make the occasional typo (well, *I* don't but this isn't about me... ), and I don't hold that against anyone. But if one repeatedly demonstrates an inability or unwillingness to communicate in proper English I have a lower confidence level in what he says.

(One free " " to the first one to find the error above...)

Would any of the outed proof readers have a favorite english grammer text?

The last one I had was "The Elements of Style" by William Strunk, Jr. circa 1918,ha ha!

Another foundation book that comes up is "English Composition and Grammar : Complete Course" by John E. Warriner.

All buried somewhere I can't easily get to.

Perhaps some new reference recommendations to place near the PC may assist our grammar challenges...

LinkC wrote:Absolutely! The way we express ourselves verbally speaks volumes. If one cannot describe his thoughts in cogent sentences, why would we assume he's capable of forming valid opinions from data found elsewhere?

If one consistently makes grammar and spelling errors it implies one of two things: he doesn't know better; or he doesn't care. Either way it degrades the perceived value of his thoughts.

We all make the occasional typo (well, *I* don't but this isn't about me... ), and I don't hold that against anyone. But if one repeatedly demonstrates an inability or unwillingness to communicate in proper English I have a lower confidence level in what he says.

(One free " " to the first one to find the error above...)

You forgots the comma after proper English ... ... prolly other erros two but I don need no stinking 's

5aces wrote:Would any of the outed proof readers have a favorite english grammer text?

The last one I had was "The Elements of Style" by William Strunk, Jr. cica 1918,ha ha!

Another foundation book that comes up is "English Composition and Grammar : Complete Course" by John E. Warriner.

All buried somewhere I can't easily get to.

Perhaps some new reference recommendations to place near the PC may assist our grammar challenges...

Absolutely!! The Gregg Reference Manual. There are 38 used copies at Amazon, starting at $1.70. http://www.amazon.com/Gregg-Reference-M ... 0028040465 (No, I own no Amazon stock, nor am I a seller there. )

Journalist types will tell you the AP Manual, but imo it's a specialty book written specifically for journalists. I really think that Gregg is the best all-around grammar reference out there. Not only does it give excellent explanations that are easy to understand, it also gives many examples in sentences, it's well-organized, and it has an excellent index. My favorite way of locating something is to find what seems to be the most appropriate topic, then scan that chapter for similar examples. AND it's spiral-bound, so it stays open once you've found what you needed. Can't recommend it highly enough.

Marsha