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Re: Best argument for an autopap??

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:31 pm
by Slinky
ziggytosh wrote: ... OH! I forgot to mention -- I am getting the DISTINCT feeling that the airflow varies during the night, as in even though it is set at a certain pressure, it gets weaker during the night and sometimes feels like just a trickle of air -- there might also simply be a problem with my machine. ...
Are you using the EPR feature? At what setting or are you changing that too? Are you using the Ramp feature? Do you use the Ramp thru out the night when you wake up?

The newer xPAPs can compensate quite well for leaks - to a point. And they CAN provide pressure ABOVE your set pressure for a short time to compensate for a leak.

Keep in mind the AI is more important than the AHI. And keep in mind that the Resmeds are more sensitive in scoring HIs than other brands. You keep mentioning AHI w/o telling us what the AI is. And pressure changes can be made in .2 cm increments despite most of us change pressure at least 1 cm at a time.

Resmed has a good overseas market should you encounter problems overseas. They originiated in Australia.

Re: Best argument for an autopap??

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:49 pm
by ziggytosh
Slinky wrote:
ziggytosh wrote:
Are you using the EPR feature? At what setting or are you changing that too? Are you using the Ramp feature? Do you use the Ramp thru out the night when you wake up?

...

You keep mentioning AHI w/o telling us what the AI is. And pressure changes can be made in .2 cm increments despite most of us change pressure at least 1 cm at a time.
I have only used the EPR a couple of times. I used it at level 2 when I increased my pressure above 12 (about a week ago), but have turned off the feature since then. I quit using the ramp feature about 1 week in (so haven't used it for the last month). On the nights when my total AHI has been around 5, the AI has been below 1, sometimes as low as 0.1. On the nights when the AHI goes up to 10-12, the AI also goes up a bit, to around 1.5-2. Clearly, the HI is accounting for most of my AHI, and I do understand that HI is not as big a deal as AI and that it probably won't ever completely go away (especially on a machine that is apparently a little overly sensitive about HI). Still, recognizing that perfection is impossible, I'd still like to get as close as I can.

Re: Best argument for an autopap??

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:10 pm
by 2girlsmom
ziggytosh wrote:
2girlsmom wrote:My AHI was 1.8 this am with an AI of 0.0. I was shocked!!
WOW! Now that is inspiring. That's where I'd like to be. Is the housecleaning mandatory though? Please don't tell my wife, ok? I can act tired if necessary.
The house cleaning is not mandatory, but was necessary here. Let me just say that ceiling fans are not supposed to be gray... what can I say, when you're constantly sleep deprived you let things go....

Re: Best argument for an autopap??

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:16 pm
by ziggytosh
Wulfman wrote:Here's a pretty recent thread where the virtues and limitations of several machines were er....um...."discussed".

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36570


Den
Hi again Den. I read through this thread you linked to and found it very enlightening. My wife has told me that although I snore far, far less with the CPAP, I have snored a little here and there. I have noticed that her telling me this coincides with the nights when my HI spikes. Even on the worst nights since I've started therapy, it's mostly HI that I'm fretting over. The AI doesn't get above 2. And even when it gets above 1, that is always on a night when the HI has gotten much higher (to 10 or so). It seems like my AI is pretty consistently 20% or less of my HI. So I've got a correlation here with snoring, HI, and AI. I don't know if that means I'm not also getting some of these "frank" apneas discussed in the other thread, but as far as I can tell most of my apneas are at least associated (on a nightly basis) with snoring and HI.

Now, I know I'm only getting a very partial picture since all the data I have is what I can get on the LCD screen once a day (ie, I haven't bought a card reader/software). But given that HI is more my problem than AI and that my AI does seem to rise and fall in correlation with my HI and snoring, and also given what that other thread says about ResMed Autosets adjusting automatically to hypopneas above 10cm ... does it seem like a ResMed Autoset would work for me? Again, I'm not married to the brand and don't really care, but it might make sense to have two machines (one CPAP and one APAP) in the same brand, again so I can reuse parts more easily.

Re: Best argument for an autopap??

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:29 pm
by Slinky
Not only that but you can use the same software and cable reader for both Resmed models. My preference is for the Resmeds altho I have both a Resmed auto and a Respironics pre-M series auto, and both Resmed and Respironics software and cable readers. When I was switched to a bi-level I insisted on the Resmed VPAP Auto.

Does your father have the software and cable reader for his Respironics? If you opt to exchange the Resmed for the Respironics and he has the software you could just copy it and would only have to buy the cable reader.

Re: Best argument for an autopap??

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:31 pm
by 2girlsmom
All I can say is it works for me even though my titrated pressure (at this most recent titration) is 10cm, it works for me much, much better than straight CPAP at 10 did. I have mine set 7-12. I like the 7 for falling asleep but the ability to go to 12 helps eliminate much more events than straight 10 on CPAP did. All I can say is try it, you can always have it set to straight CPAP if APAP doesn't benefit you.

Re: Best argument for an autopap??

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:23 pm
by LoQ
It seems reasonable that EVERYONE should routinely be prescribed an APAP machine, unless there are specific reasons not to.

If I had it to over, knowing what I do now, I would have said to my PA, "All APAP machines can be set to run in CPAP mode. Running it in auto mode occasionally would allow me to get more data that could be helpful to me in knowing what CPAP pressure to choose. Unless you have a very specific reason why I should NOT ever use a machine running in APAP mode, I would like for you to prescribe for me an auto machine. If not, then I would like to hear from the sleep doctor directly on why that is not possible."

Re: Best argument for an autopap??

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:44 pm
by Bookbear
Ziggytosh, one thing I would mention to your doc (reminding, actually; they should know this already) is that any apap can be set to straight cpap mode if it turns out that a single pressure gives you better therapy (as it does for some people).

Good luck!

Re: Best argument for an autopap??

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:01 am
by Songbird
Hi, Ziggytosh.

(I just saw this thread... don't know if you'll see this before your appointment, but I'll give it a shot.) I've been working on putting info together about why getting an APAP Rx is better than getting one for CPAP, piecing it together from a number of articles and threads in our forum. Although I'm not completely happy with the way it's arranged, I do feel very comfortable that the details are accurate, and I thought it might help you with your sleep doc.

A caution: The document itself (everything below the line of asterisks) is loooooong. If you cut & paste it into a Word or Word Perfect document, it comes to about 1.5 very full pages, using 10-point Comic Sans and the following margins: 0.625 top, 0.5 bottom and 1.0 left and right. Throwing blank lines between the various points might make it look less crammed, but of course it'll be longer. If you think your doc would be receptive, you could give it to him/her. I'm pretty sure that nothing in it is deragatory about docs or DMEs. BUT if you don't think your doc would be very receptive, don't give it to him/her. It could be counterproductive and only result in his/her eyes glazing over and ears closing. He/She might decide to be insulted by the perceived slight of being told anything by a "civilian" (even though that wasn't your intention). Proceed gingerly. We all have egos, and some are more easily threatened than others. You might find it best to only use it yourself just in pre-appointment preparation or as a reference when talking with your doc. Or you might decide to pare it down to the bare-bones details. At any rate, you're welcome to any/all of it.

IMO, the best argument is that a lot can change in five years, which is the usual minimum amount the insurance companies require to pass before they'll replace a machine, and any of us very well might need APAP within five years even if we only need CPAP now. I would NOT mention that I knew or could find out how to switch it from CPAP to APAP, how to change the pressure, etc. I WOULD mention I understood that DMEs are supposed to change the settings (mentioning you understand something commits you to nothing), and at least this way you'd have the possibility of using APAP if you'd need it within the next five years. I'm not saying to lie, but communicating that you want to work with your doc won't hurt a bit. (If a doc at some point demonstrates he/she doesn't want to work with you, that cancels all bets. JMO.) I'd also emphasize that the DME is going to get the same amount of money, no matter if it's a CPAP or an APAP. Both are submitted under the same insurance billing code. (Your doc should know that.)

Above all else, be nice, be positive and don't get into a debate. Please post back to this thread and let us know how things went for you.

Marsha

P.S. If anyone sees anything that could be improved or needs to be corrected, please let me know. Thanks!!
**************************************************************************************************************************************
IN SUPPORT OF PRESCRIBING AN APAP MACHINE (centered when stored as a separate document)

Research:
-- American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine: “Can Patients with Obstructive Sleep Apnea Titrate Their Own Continuous Positive Airway Pressure?” Determination: Home self-titration of CPAP is as effective as in-laboratory manual titration in the management of patients with OSA. http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/conte ... /167/5/716
-- Otolaryngology-Head and Neck Surgery: “Nonattended home automated continuous positive airway pressure titration: Comparison with polysomnography” Determination: Nasal APAP titration in this study correctly identified residual apnea equivalent to the use of PSG. This correct identification allows the physician to accurately access the efficacy of treatment. http://www.sleepsolutions.com/clinical_ ... o-CPAP.pdf

The most common indicators for prescribing APAP therapy are:
-- Twenty events per hour or more, depending on the oxygen desaturation rate.
-- Relatively wide difference in titrated pressure requirements when sleeping on the side, as opposed to supine sleeping.
-- Regular daytime drowsiness.

A patient’s pressure requirement can fluctuate:
-- With significant weight increase or decrease.
-- With changes in sleeping positions.
-- When he/she is congested due to sinus problems, illness or climate/humidity changes.
-- Normally during the night.
-- With a mask change, mask leaks or adjustments to the fit of the mask.

A different pressure setting might be needed because of difficulties during the titration study:
-- Titrated pressure may have been only an educated guess due to the patient’s lack of sleep at all levels during the titration study.
-- During the titration study, the patient might experience more REM sleep than he's/she's had in years, which would result in an REM rebound effect and require higher pressure. Once on xPAP therapy, sleep patterns would return to normal, and the pressure would then be too high.
-- Untreated sleep apnea may cause swelling in the mouth and throat and require a higher pressure setting in the lab. With xPAP treatment, the swelling may go down, and a lower setting would then be needed.
-- If the patient had nasal congestion during the titration study due to allergies, a cold, chemical sensitivity, cool air or trying both heated and passover humidified air flow, a higher pressure setting may have been required in the lab than the patient actually needs.
-- During the titration study, if the patient slept poorly and had little or no REM sleep or didn’t sleep on his/her back, the technician might have estimated the setting rather than rescheduling the test and reported an estimated pressure that is actually too high or too low.

Insurance companies rarely replace machines for at least 5 years after the initial rental period. The patient’s needs very possibly could change during that length of time.
-- A titration study is an expensive way to fine-tune pressure requirements, and it carries the added risk of the patient not sleeping normally in the lab setting.
-- Using an APAP machine at home often results in more accurate readings, enabling the doctor to determine the best single pressure setting for CPAP therapy or range for APAP therapy.
-- Using an APAP machine may reduce the frequency of doctor, sleep lab and DME visits, thus saving money both for the patient and the insurance company.
-- Working with a doctor and periodically using an overnight recording pulse oximeter, which can be prescribed, the patient can test for oxygen levels at home and report to the doctor for his/her interpretation.

When a patient is informed, responsible and willing to work appropriately with his/her doctor, better compliance is reported with APAP rather than CPAP machines because:
-- Patient involvement leads to improved treatment, higher satisfaction levels and a sense of controlling his/her condition rather than being controlled by it.
-- Patients often need a lower, and therefore more comfortable, overall pressure with APAP.
-- With daily monitoring, the patient can detect and assess the volume of mask leaks and test his/her existing or new mask adjustments, which also leads to added comfort.
-- APAP machines enable patients to get the full benefits of therapy. Otherwise, the patient may not feel as well if using a particular pressure setting and because of that be tempted to give up.

When APAP machines are prescribed:
-- Either CPAP or APAP therapy can be utilized.
-- When the minimum pressure is set close to the Rx pressure, many patients require a slightly lower pressure for most of the night, and events are still controlled. Higher set pressures may lead to more mask leaks or aerophagia, resulting in less comfort and poorer therapy.
-- The number of titration studies, which are expensive, can be reduced or even eliminated.
-- With the machine's data capability, the patient can do mini-sleep studies as needed in the comfort of his/her bed, which often leads to more accurate readings and helps the doctor to adjust the patient’s therapy to what helps the most.
-- If it’s determined that the patient does better on straight CPAP, the CPAP mode can be used until the numbers would indicate a need for a change.
-- Without changing the baseline lower pressure, the upper pressure setting can respond to the upper range of events and lead to more effective therapy.
-- Using a range of pressures, APAP can identify events that would be missed by a fixed CPAP pressure that is too low and would lead to poorer therapy results.

Re: Best argument for an autopap??

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:22 am
by Slinky
I still say the BEST argument for an autoPAP in your case is:
Slinky wrote:Your A #1 best argument in favor of the Resmed S8 II AutoSet (or Resmed S8 AutoSet Vantage) is that you are starting a new government job in a few months that will have you posted permanently overseas, including in some countries where good medical care is hard to find. That can also be your excuse for why you've played around w/your therapy settings since getting your Elite.
I'm not trying to take away from all the effort, forethought and time SongBird put into the reasoning posted above but in your case you have THE BEST reason in the world for not just wanting but NEEDING an autoPAP.

Re: Best argument for an autopap??

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:33 am
by Songbird
Slinky wrote:I still say the BEST argument for an autoPAP in your case is:
Slinky wrote:Your A #1 best argument in favor of the Resmed S8 II AutoSet (or Resmed S8 AutoSet Vantage) is that you are starting a new government job in a few months that will have you posted permanently overseas, including in some countries where good medical care is hard to find. That can also be your excuse for why you've played around w/your therapy settings since getting your Elite.
I'm not trying to take away from all the effort, forethought and time SongBird put into the reasoning posted above but in your case you have THE BEST reason in the world for not just wanting but NEEDING an autoPAP.
Talk about not having short-term memory!! Yes, you're right, Slinky (and I didn't think that you were trying to take anything from my post; not at all). I'd forgotten about his going overseas. That IS the best reason for Ziggytosh to get an APAP. Thanks!!

Marsha

Re: Best argument for an autopap??

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:42 am
by Slinky
Ah, but, SongBird, your compilation will be a BIG help to others who are struggling to get an autoPAP!!! Bless you for going to all that work to help others.

Re: Best argument for an autopap??

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:12 am
by ziggytosh
Songbird wrote:Proceed gingerly. We all have egos, and some are more easily threatened than others. You might find it best to only use it yourself just in pre-appointment preparation or as a reference when talking with your doc. Or you might decide to pare it down to the bare-bones details. At any rate, you're welcome to any/all of it.
Awesome, Songbird!! Thanks so much for posting this. My appointment is in a few hours and I'm reviewing this now. I think a lot of the arguments here dovetail well with my living overseas thing. It just means that I will be subject to more changes in climate, altitude, diet, and lots of other things. So I think the central idea is that the APAP works better with changing internal and external conditions, and I have particularly reason to expect lots of change.

Anyway, thanks again. I REALLY, really appreciate this and I'm sure future keyword searchers will too.

Re: Best argument for an autopap??

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:48 am
by Songbird
You are very welcome! As I had said, it's something I've been working on, so it was basically ready for the road when I saw your post. And really, most of the credit should go to Mile High Sleeper, because the bulk of what I have is from her "Reasons to Use APAP" article in Our Wisdom, with some other things added. Good luck, and let us know how your appointment went!

Marsha

Re: Best argument for an autopap??

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:00 am
by ziggytosh
Hey, one other question ...

I know insurance coverage varies, but in reading your notes about most insurance companies not replacing machines within 5 years, does that mean I might be stuck with the straight CPAP prescribed 5 or so weeks ago? My insurance was great the first time around -- they paid 100% of everything. Would an insurance company typically view a doctor-prescribed move from CPAP to APAP as being a necessary switch that required coverage or an optional switch and I should have chosen more carefully the first time around?

If they don't cover it, I suppose the good news is with that new job starting in a few months, I'll have a whole new insurance policy and can just get it done all over again. I could probably make the CPAP work until then, or buy a cheap APAP unit if one comes up on Craigslist.