CPAPtalk.com

goose wrote:.knock wood -- our bags decided to spend the night in Seattle instead of following us to Sacramento.

Your bags are pretty clever. I'd rather be in Seattle than here.

Suppose you check your CPAP and they loose your luggage, then it could be life threatening to NOT have it. I choose not to take that chance.

If the below is truly how you feel and you have paid good hard earned cash for your stuff
then feel free to give it to the baggage handlers to throw it into the belly of the plane with all of the big stuff then toss it on the conveyor belt to travel to the baggage carousel to crash around with all of the other goodies.

Carry on is strictly fr the protection of the equipment abd that is far from idiocy, most normal inteligent people will figure this out

Must be nice to be rich and afford one of these every time it is broken
Next time email me direct or post your snide BS under your user name so we can all know who you are

Wow... just wow. We're suddenly "disabled" because we have a prescription for a CPAP? An "assistive device" could reasonably be interpreted to mean a device assisting with mobility such as a walker, wheelchair, walking cane, etc. If it were a flight where sleep was reasonably expected (long flight, not a 2 hour one), then I can see it too. But when push comes to shove, if we're going to sit around and whine "poor me, I'm disabled", then I can see why folks would make fun of us. And to even consider a CPAP as a "respirator" or ventilator, well, I'm just calling BS. FURTHERMORE, I believe it's a very fair argument that unless you have a method of powering the device (such as a battery), then calling it an "assistive device" when you can't even USE it on-board the plane is disingenuous.[/quote]

MMCGOWAN wrote: Next time email me direct or post your snide BS under your user name so we can all know who you are

Hey MMcGowan -- there was a name with the post!! (I had to go back and look -- I thought there was. I'll just keep the rest of my comment to myself ) I'll just say, I agree with your assessment!!

Remember that Samsonite commercial where they had gorillas handling your baggage......well........
I've watched my bags from inside the airplane and had to cringe a couple times. I'm realllllly glad I use a "hard case" suitcase!!!! But that said, I don't want those people handling my xPAP!!!!! No way!!!!!

and Fortomorrow -- yeah hear ya!!!! When we left Seattle it was like 68 degrees and when we got to Sac it was 90 -- at 10pm!!!!!!! Thankfully, we drive east into the hills to get home.......

cheers
goose

DreamDiver wrote:This was posted on flyertalk.com on September 26, 2008, so this is very recent and relevant.

mirage1228 wrote:

http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/publi...ngMobilityAids

Handling of Mobility Aids and Assistive Devices

http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/publi...anceProcedures

From the same thread:

21USC333 wrote:Completely agree. To prevent you from bringing CPAP on board is a violation of federal aviation regulations. See 14 CFR Section 382.41:

(b) Carriers shall permit qualified individuals
with a disability using personal
ventilators/respirators to bring
their equipment, including non-spillable
batteries that meet the requirements
of 49 CFR 173.159(d) and any applicable
FAA safety regulations, on
board the aircraft and use it.

(d) Carriers shall not, in implementing
their carry-on baggage policies,
count toward a limit on carry-on
items any assistive device brought into
the cabin by a qualified individual with
a disability.

See also http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/rules/20011029.htm

I hope this helps.

Not wanting to be tedious, but I found dead links to the first 2 websites listed above, and the third one quoted more than once on this thread is dated 2001, so I'm wondering if it is in fact current.

Guest wrote:HOWEVER I DO agree that people should be allowed to carry on their CPAP/Bi-Level machines. I'm sorry ractar, not to pick on you, but your argument about the laptop has soo many holes in it I don't even know where to start. Computers are readily available for purchase without any delay in just about every corner of the world, the same cannot be said for CPAP/Bi-Level machines.

I'm not advocating that people shouldn't be ALLOWED to carry them on the plane. I'm simply stating that getting a special exemption to the "2 personal items" rule is pushing the limits of the rule pretty hard. An xpap device can be replaced in 20 minutes, agreed? I mean, call the dr, fax the script to the DME, DME configures the pressure and hands you a mask and the machine and sends you on your way. You've lost compliance data, done a stupid song/dance routine, and if you don't get insurance coverage for the device, you're out a buttload of money due to the machine/mask not being returnable and the lost luggage reimbursement fee being absurdly low. But you would not die, plain and simple. You'd be majorly inconvenienced.

The laptop is used merely as an example of another pricey electronic item that people carry on-board rather than checking. Also, I'd submit to you that replacing the DATA on a computer would take a lot more time than replacing an xPAP machine.

I'm not arguing things like:
1. Airlines don't mishandle luggage.
2. Airlines don't lose luggage.

... or any other obviously absurd statements. However, you have a CHOICE of what two personal bags you want to bring on board. If that means checking your clothes and such so you can bring your laptop and xpap machine as carry-on, then so be it.

AT NO POINT HAVE I SUGGESTED THAT A PERSON SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO BRING A CPAP AS CARRY-ON. I'm arguing the "I'm a victim, I'm injured, I have rights (which is a stretch), and I'm going to sue because I can't take a Jay Leno joke" stuff.

MMCGOWAN wrote: Next time email me direct or post your snide BS under your user name so we can all know who you are

Wow... just wow. We're suddenly "disabled" because we have a prescription for a CPAP? An "assistive device" could reasonably be interpreted to mean a device assisting with mobility such as a walker, wheelchair, walking cane, etc. If it were a flight where sleep was reasonably expected (long flight, not a 2 hour one), then I can see it too. But when push comes to shove, if we're going to sit around and whine "poor me, I'm disabled", then I can see why folks would make fun of us. And to even consider a CPAP as a "respirator" or ventilator, well, I'm just calling BS. FURTHERMORE, I believe it's a very fair argument that unless you have a method of powering the device (such as a battery), then calling it an "assistive device" when you can't even USE it on-board the plane is disingenuous.

I posted this under my username. I'm not sure how you missed that. See where it says "ractar28" right there next to the post? That's me, hi, how are you?

If the below is truly how you feel and you have paid good hard earned cash for your stuff
then feel free to give it to the baggage handlers to throw it into the belly of the plane with all of the big stuff then toss it on the conveyor belt to travel to the baggage carousel to crash around with all of the other goodies.

Carry on is strictly fr the protection of the equipment abd that is far from idiocy, most normal inteligent people will figure this out

Must be nice to be rich and afford one of these every time it is broken

See, here's what I'm not understanding. I NEVER said you shouldn't be allowed to carry the device on-board. I NEVER said you SHOULD check it with other baggage. What I said is that what you quoted of the rules seems to be a stretch of the rule. Below is what you posted as the relevent rules which you believe REQUIRE the airlines to allow you a THIRD CARRY-ON BAG for your xPAP device.

14 CFR Section 382.41:

(b) Carriers shall permit qualified individuals
with a disability using personal
ventilators/respirators to bring
their equipment, including non-spillable
batteries that meet the requirements
of 49 CFR 173.159(d) and any applicable
FAA safety regulations, on
board the aircraft and use it.

(d) Carriers shall not, in implementing
their carry-on baggage policies,
count toward a limit on carry-on
items any assistive device brought into
the cabin by a qualified individual with
a disability.

We agree with that, right? That's the part you're quoting as being the reason why "the militant TSA and airlines need to wise up we do have rights", correct?

"qualified individuals
with a disability using personal
ventilators/respirators to bring
their equipment,"

Okay, first, prove you're qualified (I'm not sure how to do that), but we're picking apart the rules, right? Then you have to prove you have a disability. THEN you have to prove it's a ventilator/respirator, which an ordinary xpap device is not.

Part B says you can bring it on-board, agreed? That's after you've proven to be qualified, disabled AND have proven the device to be a ventilator/respirator. Not only can you bring it on-board, you can even use it on-board. That's very nice to people using a REAL ventilator who would die without it.

Now, let's go to part D.
"Carriers shall not, in implementing
their carry-on baggage policies,
count toward a limit on carry-on
items any assistive device brought into
the cabin by a qualified individual with
a disability."

So, if your device is covered by part B, then the airline can't count the item against your carry-on baggage, correct? However, you're back to having to PROVE that it's a respirator/ventilator. Furthermore, part B even allows for wheelchairs to be forced into the cargo area if there's no suitable area available in the cabin.

So, prove you're disabled (I don't have a placard or handicapped tag for my car because of my xPAP), that you're a "qualified individual", and that you're carrying a respirator/ventilator, and you're golden. However, my argument is that you're taking some pretty serious "loose interpretations" of "disabled" and "respirator/ventilator".

ractar28 wrote:An xpap device can be replaced in 20 minutes, agreed?

Disagreed... even under the best of circumstances. Scenario as it related to the subject line of this thread: You just got off the plane in a strange city and have been told your luggage is lost... in which you have packed your xPAP machine.

Also, I'd submit to you that replacing the DATA on a computer would take a lot more time than replacing an xPAP machine.

This has nothing to do with carrying an xPAP device as carry on luggage on an airliner.

In any case sounds like you've been burned as a result of not taking backup copies of your data. Take regular backups and you will find replacing your data WILL only take 20 minutes or less.

Paul56 wrote:

ractar28 wrote:An xpap device can be replaced in 20 minutes, agreed?

Disagreed... even under the best of circumstances. Scenario as it related to the subject line of this thread: You just got off the plane in a strange city and have been told your luggage is lost... in which you have packed your xPAP machine.

You're telling me that your plane lands at 10am, your xPAP is gone. You cannot find a DME provider that has a cpap machine in stock? You can't get your doctor to fix over a script to that DME? The DME can't set up a machine in 20 mins? I set mine up in under 5, and I'm not a DME provider. The cost will be absurd, and it could end up being YOUR cost and your problem, but I submit that the machine could be replaced. If it couldn't be, you still could check into a hospital (again, ABSURD cost, but we're talking about you having SOME options).

Also, I'd submit to you that replacing the DATA on a computer would take a lot more time than replacing an xPAP machine.

This has nothing to do with carrying an xPAP device as carry on luggage on an airliner.

In any case sounds like you've been burned as a result of not taking backup copies of your data. Take regular backups and you will find replacing your data WILL only take 20 minutes or less.

I have backups of computers I don't even have anymore. Sure, I've lost data from not backing up, but it's a risk I took, knowing the consequences. I probably should mention that I'm in IT. Also, I submit that buying a computer off the shelf and putting it into the condition of your machine that was lost, will take longer than 20 minutes. You'll have to install the VPN software, connect to the network, if security is properly set, you'll have to join the computer to the domain to access important resources, AND... if it's got Vista Home, you have to put a whole new operating system on it so it CAN join a domain. Then there's the whole issue of getting all of your mail downloaded into your .OST file for Outlook (which you had to buy and install as well).

For fun, I'm in Dallas. If you're local, let's meet up. I'll bring my cpap and you bring your laptop. You reset the cpap to factory settings and I'll format your hard drive. First one to be back in business first gets $100. Oh, bring $100 .

Also, remember that I'm arguing that I don't believe that the CFR regulations quoted within this thread cover xPAP machines. I'm not arguing against being able to bring them in the cabin, only that you're exempt from having to count the bag toward your carry-on items. That's ALL I'm arguing.

rectar you simply need to drop your position it is jut not becoming of someone who portrays themselves to possess intellect

I normally fly in the night before a job and usually get in around 6-7-local time so provide me a lit of 24 hour DME suppliers and MD's who will fax the script after hours

Give it up my friend and be big enough to admit your not being practical or sensable

nuff said scooter....

Rectar, I can't believe that you really believe that a person could replace a XPAP machine in 20 minutes, in a strange city never mind a foreign country. It took us days just to replace clothing and toiletries, in Italy and none of this required a prescription, calling to the US with a 9 hour time difference or trying to communicate with locals when we did not speak Italian. How could my physician write a prescription that would be understood or even accepted in a foreign country? Then, there is no guarantee that the country you are in has anything like DME's with XPAP machines, in stock, to sell to tourists that were unfortunate enough to send their machine with the checked baggage. How much have you traveled? Not much, I gather, from the above statement you have made. Have you traveled to third world nations or ex-Iron Curtain nations? Have you ever had to access health care while traveling? Things don't work the same way the do here in the US. I am sure that even if I traveled just from one US city to another and my XPAP was lost that it would take at least a day to get a replacement and that it would be on my dime. It can take days just to get my medical group to refill a simple medication prescription. I can't imagine trying to reach them from Budapest or wherever and trying to explain that I need a new prescription in Hungarian or whatever language for a XPAP machine. I don't speak Hungarian or Italian, or whatever language you want to fill in the blank with and I am sure my doctor doesn't either. I think you need to reassess your position.

ractar28, I believe you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Not only that but you have injected tangents and attempted to alter certain parameters of the discussion along the way.

No big deal really. In the final analysis I still believe it is prudent to bring xPAP equipment as carry-on luggage no matter what exception to the rules I have to invoke.

Paul56 wrote:ractar28, I believe you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Not only that but you have injected tangents and attempted to alter certain parameters of the discussion along the way.

No big deal really. In the final analysis I still believe it is prudent to bring xPAP equipment as carry-on luggage no matter what exception to the rules I have to invoke.

I simply try to look at things objectively. My interpretation of the rules cited is obviously different from yours. I simply believe some people are trying to invoke rules that don't apply to them. The spirit of the rule is to ensure that people aren't "dinged" for trying to bring their wheelchair on-board.

The argument being used is that the device is difficult to replace, fragile, and people don't want the device stolen by TSA (which we all know never happens -- they're saints I tell ya), mishandled/abused by luggage handlers, or lost/misrouted. I understand those concerns. For those reasons, I naturally agree with carrying the device on-board. The issue at hand is whether you're somehow ENTITLED to carry the device on-board without it counting against your carry-on bags. The rules have been quoted, and from strict interpretation, I don't agree that they are "protected" under the rule.

It's one thing to "wink wink" abuse the rule, but that's not how this thread started. It started by someone suggesting they wanted to SUE the airline for discrimination. I believe that if that ever made it to court, the AIRLINES would win and, in the end, those owning xPAP equipment would lose. I guess it really comes down to the "legal definition" of a respirator/ventilator. It's just not a battle I see as being good for xPAP users as a whole.

Well to take a short break from feeding the troll, here is a useful product sold by cpap.com, our helpful forums sponsors. A official looking plastic tag explaining that your CPAP bag doesn't count towards your carryon limit.

Two to choose from:

https://www.cpap.com/productpage/medica ... pment.html
https://www.cpap.com/productpage/CPAP-M ... t-Tag.html

I usually only have one carryon bag anyways so it isn't a big deal there... but it is nice to have in case you have a nervous x-ray technician who hasn't seen a CPAP before.

Sideswiper wrote:Well to take a short break from feeding the troll, here is a useful product sold by cpap.com, our helpful forums sponsors. A official looking plastic tag explaining that your CPAP bag doesn't count towards your carryon limit.

"official looking" and from the site "The ID tag may also help in allowing your equipment to be carried aboard an aircraft in addition to any carry-on luggage item limits. "

I honestly cannot believe that anyone is trying to defend the idea that the rule quoted applies to xPAP machines. It truly befuddles me that anyone can read the rule and not think they are taking "liberties" with it. The very idea that someone would come on here to call me a "troll" when I have stated my position and my reasoning for my position, simply because I disagree with their viewpoint is terribly pathetic.

Please explain to me how invoking this rule isn't abusing the system less than parking grandma's car in the handicapped spot at Best Buy because you're too LAZY (not handicapped, grandma isn't with you) to walk.

I own and use a CPAP and have had a cpap for over 10 years. I am NOT handicapped and fully believe that handicapped people have rights and do my best to ensure that those rights are upheld.

We simply see the world differently. I believe you are exploiting a loophole by intentionally muddying the waters (under my troll bridge I guess) in order to get your way.

Shame on you for "standing up for your rights based on principle" when the underlying principle is a contortion of your own to the rules. Furthermore, shame on you for then being indignant with the airline personnel for following the rules when you won't.

Now, since I'm trolling, I might as well toss out a little more chum. The airlines should be beaten for charging for checked baggage -- just what we need are MORE people trying to stuff 4 weeks of clothes into a ziplock bag, and then putting bags too heavy to even BE in the overhead bins in the overhead bins after using 12 different shoehorns and enough grease to allow the bag to somehow fit. If I had MY way, every bag brought on-board would have to fit inside the little 2x2x4" template they have at the gate showing how big the bags can be. I dare say a lot of people would be gate-checking bags. The good news is that I don't run the airlines.