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RafterRattler wrote: ........ Yes, I have read the bible. In fact, I was raised in a christian home...and half of my family are still bible thumping evangelical 'christians'. I wasted the first 30+ years of my life believing I was a sinner and in need of salvation. I spent most of my life feeling guilty about who I am and the fact that christianity never made any sense to me - so I never felt 'saved'. ......
Mike

Mike,

You could sign my name to your statment and it would be true for me also. I began to question Christianity when I was in my teens and struggled with it for 40 years. I read volumes of "pro and anti" authors and could still not make sense of the Bible.

Then when I was in my fifties I developed a close relationship with some people with strong faith (not good people, just people with strong faith). Gradually my faith began to grow and my Bible reading took on a new life. It started to look different to me and quickly became a source of great joy and inspiration.

I have recently learned that God had the Bible written for his believers. Nonbelievers will not understand it. I thought for 40 years if I read enough and developed an understanding I would become a believer. I had it backwards: I needed to have faith first and then the understanding came.

BTW, for those of us who grew up in a strict church which leaves bad memories and lots of doubt, I found reading The Jesus I Never Knew by Philip Yancy, helped me understand the greatest gift better.

When I was in junior high school, I bought a big book of poetry - an anthology of "famous" poets throughout the centuries. One fragment sticks in my head:

"Buddhist, Catholic, Muslim, Jew
Each reached Him
Through the Gods he knew"

Forgive the male-centric attitude, and you hear a profound thought. It touched me deeply.

Just like every mask doesn't fit every face and every therapy need, every religion or discipline does not fill the need in every soul.

There is no right path. If you feel a yearning, go seek out all the "truths" you can, until you find the one that speaks to you. Don't buy a religion because you think you have to. Buy the one that you know inside you is right.

Just like dating - you'll KNOW when you've met the right one.

If you feel no yearning, then rejoice in your soul's evolvement, and spend your energies on something else. Lots of things need doing in this world.

That's all I can say about it.

How interesting that we're having this discussion during the High Holy Days...

Shalom!
Babs

I have faith that all the religious beliefs will one day be "intelligently" contradicted by the Flying Spaghetti Monster

WearyOne wrote:Personally, I'd love some day for there to be a viable third-party candidate, but I'm not sure how that would ever happen.

It cannot happened if people always think it never would. But there have been other political parties in the past before the Dems and GOP took hold ... so obviously it can happen and it definitley needs to happen.

It’s sort’a like a newbie using CPAP … first thoughts are that getting restful sleep hooked up to an air hose would never happen. For some of those newbies, their stubborn belief keeps them in a most unfortunate health predicament.

DreamStalker wrote:... But there have been other political parties in the past before the Dems and GOP took hold ... so obviously it can happen and it definitley needs to happen.

It’s sort’a like a newbie using CPAP … first thoughts are that getting restful sleep hooked up to an air hose would never happen. For some of those newbies, their stubborn belief keeps them in a most unfortunate health predicament.

Good point, DreamStalker! IMHO it takes a very large amount of distress before we'll see a viable third-party win but I think it's inevitable over the long term .... or the current political parties will be forced to change. In my view, today's political situation does not appear to be suited to or sustainable in the 21st century's shrunken world.

Mindy

All Hail His Noodly Appendage!!!!!

http://www.venganza.org/

ARRRGH!!!!!
Babs - Former Devotee of the Rev. Buck Nekkid, as well: http://www.subgenius.com/

DreamStalker wrote:

WearyOne wrote:Personally, I'd love some day for there to be a viable third-party candidate, but I'm not sure how that would ever happen.

It cannot happened if people always think it never would. But there have been other political parties in the past before the Dems and GOP took hold ... so obviously it can happen and it definitley needs to happen.

It’s sort’a like a newbie using CPAP … first thoughts are that getting restful sleep hooked up to an air hose would never happen. For some of those newbies, their stubborn belief keeps them in a most unfortunate health predicament.

My son and I were talking about this over the summer. How would you actually get started on this? I know my political knowledge has A LOT to be desired, but seriously, where do you start as a voter? Just start voting for a third-party candidate you like even though you know they don't have a chance? My son considers himself one of the "other" parties, but is registered Republican. He doesn't like McCain at all, and was going to vote for a third party until Palin hit the scene. He agrees with much of what she says and that has changed his mind on who he voted for this time.

I miss the Whigs....

At the very least, I can't figure out why we can't sustain a viable Green Party. Or even the Christian Democrats, like the Europeans do. Heck, if the Christian Right wants their own party, why don't they start their own, and leave the Republicans to themselves?

Cheers,
Babs

rooster wrote:Mike,

You could sign my name to your statment and it would be true for me also. I began to question Christianity when I was in my teens and struggled with it for 40 years. I read volumes of "pro and anti" authors and could still not make sense of the Bible.

Then when I was in my fifties I developed a close relationship with some people with strong faith (not good people, just people with strong faith). Gradually my faith began to grow and my Bible reading took on a new life. It started to look different to me and quickly became a source of great joy and inspiration.

I have recently learned that God had the Bible written for his believers. Nonbelievers will not understand it. I thought for 40 years if I read enough and developed an understanding I would become a believer. I had it backwards: I needed to have faith first and then the understanding came.

BTW, for those of us who grew up in a strict church which leaves bad memories and lots of doubt, I found reading The Jesus I Never Knew by Philip Yancy, helped me understand the greatest gift better.

Hehe.......and there it is. The inevitable 'I used to be you, then I saw the light' response.

I really do understand that the religious can't control their drive to 'witness', but in all seriousness, what made you think this post was a good idea? Is it any wonder that atheists always seem angry? You're going to have to trust that it's not you personally that I'm attacking. I'm attacking what religion does to people. I can appreciate the fact that your beliefs bring you great joy and inspiration - much in the same way Star Trek fans enjoy their hobby....or maybe even Babs with her historical re-enactments. In that way, I say more power to ya (to quote an old Petra song). As soon as you cross the line and start telling others how they should live their lives (or electing officials that do that), then I scream foul. I realize you haven't done that here, but it IS the overall christian agenda.

BTW, I can't do the flying spaghetti monster either. When I was growing up, every Sunday after the hell that was called church, my brother and I would go home for our weekly beating (for being noisy in church) and then we'd have spaghetti. The concept of the FSM brings back too many bad memories.

Edit: Ok. I know...I flew off the handle. Sorry...obviously this is a hot button for me. Back to the topic. I like the idea of starting a new party. Count me in.

Mike

RafterRattler wrote: ........ As soon as you cross the line and start telling others how they should live their lives (or electing officials that do that), then I scream foul. I realize you haven't done that here, but it IS the overall christian agenda.

........
Mike

Oh not at all, Mike. Your view is Biblically correct. In fact, the founders of the U.S. worded it very well in the Declaration of Indepence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The founders took that from God's Word. God has given us freedom and no one of us should impose his (or His) will upon another.

I am sorry you had bad experiences with people who would like to impose their will on others, but this is part of the human condition. I am very happy to have dodged the worst of these people in the century just concluded: Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Chiang Kai-shek, Enver Pasha, Hirohito, Hirota Koki, Ho Chi Minh, Kim Il Sung, Lenin, Leopold II, Nicholas II, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Tojo Hideki, Wilhelm II, Yahya Khan, Idi Amin, Ion Antonescu, Ataturk, Francisco Franco, Gheoghe Gheorghiu-Dej, Yakubu Gowon, Radovan Karadzic, Babrac Kemal, Le Duan, Haile Mengistu, Benito Mussolini, Ante Pavelic, Antonio de Salazar, Hadji Suharto, and Tito.

Now let's count how many of these murdered and tortured in the promotion of Christianity.

Hmm. I am having a little difficulty. Let me come back to this post later.

To quote Monty Python.....

"No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

Ta-dum!
B.

dwood003 wrote:The results of her despair would be more preferable to the alternative!

AMEN ! SUPPORT YOUR MILITARY

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mth712 wrote:Let us all pray for our brothers that have lost their way. Mike,God hasn't forgotten you or forsaken you,he is waiting for you to find your way back to the light. Same goes for you Babs and Rooster. Now let us bow... Dear Father,please show these lost souls the way to the light and never ending joys of your love. Amen

Hahahahahahah! Thanks Mth. Assuming you were being sarcastic, thanks for the laugh. Touche', and I will try to lighten up a bit.

Mike

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rooster wrote: I am sorry you had bad experiences with people who would like to impose their will on others, but this is part of the human condition. I am very happy to have dodged the worst of these people in the century just concluded: Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Chiang Kai-shek, Enver Pasha, Hirohito, Hirota Koki, Ho Chi Minh, Kim Il Sung, Lenin, Leopold II, Nicholas II, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Tojo Hideki, Wilhelm II, Yahya Khan, Idi Amin, Ion Antonescu, Ataturk, Francisco Franco, Gheoghe Gheorghiu-Dej, Yakubu Gowon, Radovan Karadzic, Babrac Kemal, Le Duan, Haile Mengistu, Benito Mussolini, Ante Pavelic, Antonio de Salazar, Hadji Suharto, and Tito.

Now let's count how many of these murdered and tortured in the promotion of Christianity.

Hmm. I am having a little difficulty. Let me come back to this post later.

I'll help you with the very first one on your list ... I think he murdered about 6 million and who knows how many were tortured ... and then we could always go back to midieval Europe and find plenty. Then there were the poor Native Americans that needed to convert and didn't that should also be in the millions.

I'm with RR .... Mom and sisters are still devout but I moved on around age 12 and have never looked back.