CPAPtalk.com

Anonymous wrote:um, I fail to see any humor in my last post? Elaborate.

The Guest whose post followed your question seems to have answered it.

Frankly, posts like yours appear anonymously all over the internet on all types of forums. Serious, long time users and beneficiaries of this, and other message boards know that it is pointless to do much other than find the humor in them as they don't really serve much constructive purpose.

I have to believe that you were not serious, otherwise I would have to question your motives for making such an absurdist statement that only insults participants and does nothing to further the conversation.

Yet Another Anonymous wrote:Some "Guests" are good and some are bad. Please consider the difference.

There can be no trust in either case, so there is no difference!

lol

So Resmed is raising its prices online--who cares? Its real customers are homecare providers....period. They screwed up in the first place letting its customers to sell online.

(I bet I'm going to regret jumping into this muck)

Guest and Guest, obviously these are for-profit companies and have a right to do business as they choose - within limits.

Resmed, Respironics, etc. are not in the business of manufacturing lawnmowers or potato chips. The equipment they manufacture and market greatly affects the quality of life of thousands of PEOPLE, and in some cases the *quantity* of life. Not everyone has access to a gold-plated health insurance plan, and not everyone can afford to pad the manufacturers' profits. A significant increase in prices in some cases mean the difference between someone getting the treatment they need and attempting to live with a condition that can have serious, possibly fatal consequences.

I very strongly believe that if you are in the business of providing life-sustaining equipment you have a moral and ethical responsibility to the patients whose lives depend on your products.

Now, if it was just one company inflating their prices then big whoop, others can fill in the gap - that's how competition works. However when the supply is limited to only a half-dozen or so providers, and these providers all inflate prices the same way at more or less the same time, then the benefits of competition are not available. I believe the term is an oligopoly. Prices go up, shareholders get happier, and HUMAN BEINGS at the other end of the chain suffer or die. In my opinion, that crosses the line and is morally reprehensible.

It's bad enough that the oil companies do this - at least they are only committing economic abuse.

'Nuff said.

World wide, Respironics, Resmed, and Fisher & Paykel represent in total close to 88% of all sleep treatment equipment sold, Each of these companies has been very profitable for many years including recent quarters. Cpap users will:

1. go back to DMEs and pay top dollar.

2. Buy from manufacturers on the internet that have not price fixed, or

3. Buy the products of the price fixing companies at much higher prices than what you see today.

It is that simple.

First of all, my opinion is that the post about Resmed raising its prices is probably true, or else Resmed would probably havie responded with someone openly designated as a company representative, saying it is not true. I have been on other forums where that happened. Companies do not want incorrect information put on the internet about them, and also get important feedback from customers by monitoring these forums, so my opinion is that it is most likely that it is true since there has been no response.

The second thing is that, if 88% of the market is taken up by 3 companies, it might be worthwhile to write to your senator or representative in Washington, and complain about this, and they well may take action if it is true.

Both parties are very concerned about the large number of Americans who do not have healthcare insurance, and may well respond if healthcare manufacturers and intentionally driving up the costs to people who do not. There is various pressure they can exert other than price fixing suits, such as refusing to reimburse the machines from certain abusing companies by medicare, and other things.

Due to the large social concern about the large number of people without healthcare insurance, I would think there is a very great chance that Congress might respond to this situation, if true.

sleepyguy1 wrote:First of all, my opinion is that the post about Resmed raising its prices is probably true, or else Resmed would probably havie responded with someone openly designated as a company representative, saying it is not true. I have been on other forums where that happened. Companies do not want incorrect information put on the internet about them, and also get important feedback from customers by monitoring these forums, so my opinion is that it is most likely that it is true since there has been no response.

The second thing is that, if 88% of the market is taken up by 3 companies, it might be worthwhile to write to your senator or representative in Washington, and complain about this, and they well may take action if it is true.

Both parties are very concerned about the large number of Americans who do not have healthcare insurance, and may well respond if healthcare manufacturers and intentionally driving up the costs to people who do not. There is various pressure they can exert other than price fixing suits, such as refusing to reimburse the machines from certain abusing companies by medicare, and other things.

Due to the large social concern about the large number of people without healthcare insurance, I would think there is a very great chance that Congress might respond to this situation, if true.

I respectfully disagree. Our elected representatives don't give a damn about the people who voted for them. If they REALLY did, they would have been able to solve this problem long ago. They're not going to bite the hand that's feeding their re-election campaigns.
These manufacturers are trying to 'hold the line" on insurance reimbursements to their brick and mortar DMEs. (Apria/Lincare/etc.)
The insurance industry (including Medicare/CMS) MAY be seeing that there are ways to save money in these areas. The DMEs make their own deals with the local/regional insurance providers, so what a person pays isn't necessarily what that same person's insurance pays.
By jacking up the retail sale prices at the Internet level, the manufacturers will be hurting those who do not have insurance, purchase additional machines/equipment or are TRYING to save their insurance carriers additional dollars by buying them out-of-pocket and then having their insurance reimburse them.....to name a few.

These manufacturers and the elected politicians are hogs at a trough and gobbling up our money.


Den

This subject really galls my a$$. I have always been a suporter of a person or company making a reasonable profit. I quite often buy fron the local Mom and Pop local store and pay a bit more than the big Discount Super Stores. But i'm sorry a 300% profit is not reasonable. When I worked in sales if I could make 33% I was happy all the way to the bank. I have not met Mr Ben Cheah but he must be at least in the top three on my list of Money Hungry Pompas A$$holes. To make this kind of Profit on the backs of people who often to sick to know any difference is almost unthinkable.

What galls me almost more is that the other 2 Biggies instead of taking this oportunity to really take over the market and make a difference are apparently going to blindly follow the leader into the same hole. All in the name of greed

For many of us going back to the Brick and Morter DME's (they are still not going to get our business) is simply not an option because they fight us so hard not to give us what we need in a data capable machine instead of glorified leaf blower. Again in the name of profit. They also make it so difficult to get anything because most want a new script for everything. Trying to find a mask that fits you under these regulations is almost impossible. The internet providers for us have been a breath of fresh air mixed with the air from our CPAP machines.

Like kennethryan, I'm most likely going to regret jumping into this muck so go ahead and take your best shot. I have been wanting to try the Quattro mask but if this goes through like our guest seems to think it will, it will be a very cold day in Texas before I will buy anything with Resmed's name on it.

Jerry

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6PtStar wrote:But i'm sorry a 300% profit is not reasonable.

As amatter of interest, at what point in the supply chain is the 300% profit being made?

6PtStar wrote:What galls me almost more is that the other 2 Biggies instead of taking this oportunity to really take over the market and make a difference are apparently going to blindly follow the leader into the same hole. All in the name of greed.

Its a regulated (by the FDA) ethical/medical product market, so another possible explanation is that there are structural issues in the whole market which make it effectively impossible for anyone to "take over the market".

Its not a consumer electronics market and expecting it to operate like one is not realistic.

Cheers,

Bill

sleepyguy1 wrote:The second thing is that, if 88% of the market is taken up by 3 companies, it might be worthwhile to write to your senator or representative in Washington, and complain about this, and they well may take action if it is true.

Only one of those companies is American - Resmed is Australian, and F&P is based in New Zealand. I don't know how much clout the US government has on the prices that the machines are imported at.

Seems like a great opportunity for the smaller companies to increase their market share.

Colin

The issue of this thread is not about Resmed's immediate profits. Resmed is forcing internet dealers to charge retail prices so high that few informed buyers would buy from them. It no longer matters how high the Resmed internet prices goes because nothing will be sold at these crazy prices.

As far as the opportunity for small manufacturers, WOW, they must be dancing with joy.

And when Respironics and Fisher & Paykel follow suit????

FWIW, I agree with the others who think the OP is being truthful and is simply passing along info he or she received from ResMed.

As I am not a Preferred Internet Provider (by choice) I cannot verify this, but based on ResMed's history it sure sounds believable.

How much more clear can ResMed be, they hate online sales of their product. What a great business model! Perhaps in 10-15 years, when online sales make up 25 or 30% of the market, they will change their tune. Are they counting on CPAP users having such poor short-term memory that the consumers will not remember how they were treated so shabbily?

ResMed, you are making a statement, we all hear you loud and clear! Your new logo should read: "Preserving Profit, Go To Hell If You Are Uninsured Or Underinsured"

Please, someone file a suit against this company (are you reading this Johnny?).

Don't forget, Respironics sold out to Philipps and Phillips is a Dutch company. Sure, they say they'll continue manufacturing xPAPs here in the USA but where does that make them any different than Resmed w/their manufacturing in California? And almost before the Phillipps/Respironics deal is sealed the scuttlebutt is out they will be raising the Respironics online prices. Fisher & Paykel is hoping for a buyout as well and they are supposedly about to raise their online prices. Again, this Supreme Court, appointed by a government that has sold its soul to the lobbyists of big business, has said "screw the average American".

billbolton wrote:As amatter of interest, at what point in the supply chain is the 300% profit being made?

I doubt 300 percent profit is the rule, but 300 percent markup from the wholesale cost DME’s pay to the retail price charged customers/insurance companies probably is.

1) I spent a day or two last week trying to find that elusive DC-30 Adapter for my wife’s VPAP Adapt SV. I spoke to many, many ResMed “Preferred Internet Providers” trying to get a price for it. This included the predictable grumbling on my part about ResMed’s anti-competitive marketing policies. I got a lot of interesting responses from folks on the other end of the line. Long-story-short: One of them spoke of “300 percent markup” by brick-and-mortar DME’s.

2) I started out with an S8 Escape. I bought a Respironcs REMstar Auto from cpap.com for less than half of the price the DME was billing my insurance company for the S8 Escape. Figuring cpap.com probably marked up the REMstar Auto by 50-to 100-percent, 300 percent DME markup sounds about right, maybe a little conservative.

(Markup of 100% from wholesale to retail is not uncommon, and it often results in fair and reasonable retail prices. Businesses have to cover the costs of doing business.)

billbolton wrote:Its a regulated (by the FDA) ethical/medical product market, so another possible explanation is that there are structural issues in the whole market which make it effectively impossible for anyone to "take over the market".

Its not a consumer electronics market and expecting it to operate like one is not realistic.

The market for CPAP is clearly not like the consumer electronics market. The consumer electronics market is fairly competitive. The result of this competition is lots of innovation and relatively low prices.

The market for CPAP is more like the US automobile market in the 1940’s and 1950’s. There were only three real “competitors,” and GM could have driven Ford and Chrysler (not to mention American Motors, Studebaker, etc.) out of business any time they wanted but for anti-trust legislation (which was enforced in those days.)

Like the automobile market in those days, entering the CPAP market would require a tremendous amount of capital up front, and even then unseating the behemoths in a less-than-competitive market would probably be impossible. Even Henry J Kaiser could not get a foot in the door in the US auto market in the late forties/early fifties.

Innovation/competition in the US auto market took a big leap forward in the late 1970's and early 1980's when foreign competitors got a good foothold. As a result, the US manufacturers (which were ill-situated to a competitive market) are struggling today, even though their quality has improved tremendously.

There are a number of anti-competitive marketing practices in various product markets, which I would like to see outlawed. MAP is one of them.

FWIW, the FDA has no role in regulating the pricing of medical devices. Their role is in approving them as to safety and efficacy. Nor, in this era of Republican administrations, is there any meaningful enforcement of anti-trust law.

Wayne