SleepHQ--Any New Constructive Suggestions for Them?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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robysue1
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Re: SleepHQ--Any New Constructive Suggestions for Them?

Post by robysue1 » Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:34 am

adampal wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:24 am
We're not always going to get things right on the first try and I'm more than happy to admit when we get it wrong and do my best to correct it. If anyone on here ever wants to get in touch with me personally, I'll turn my notifications on for my profile on this forum so you can message me or tag me into threads if it's something you want to make me aware of.
No-one expects you to get everything "right" on the first try: That's what beta-testing is all about. But once a product launches and the developers expect people to pay actual money for the product, it should not have obvious beta-test bugs still in it. And right now, the free demo version of the soon-to-be subscription version of SleepHQ still looks like a decent quality beta version.

Unfortunately y'all have not been as transparent as you seem to think you are about admitting to when you get something wrong.

adampal wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:24 am
For example, Paul and I had a great conversation around the mask pressure issue and I appreciate him bringing it to my attention. I'll get it fixed but it's just not something I can get to this week. For the time being, we decided that it was better to remove the graph than show something that was misrepresenting the data.
In the goal of transparency, y'all should have informed users that the mask pressure curve was no longer available because you are working on fixing a bug rather than just having it disappear.


adampal wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:24 am
Reading through this thread, I can see that there's also an issue for BiPAP users on the pressure chart given we don't display EPAP and IPAP separately at the moment. This is another one that I'd like to fix as soon as we're past this initial launch phase and I have some time to spare.
Drawing the EPAP & IPAP pressure curves correctly for both PR DreamStation BiPAP (and ASV machines) as well as drawing the EPAP curve for Resmed Vauto and ASV machines is not a minor bug. In my humble opinion, if the product can't correctly display this basic, prescription-based information correctly to a user, the product is not ready for a commercial launch.

In other words, asking folks to pay $15/month for some very useful bells & whistles when one of the most basic, fundamental aspects of xPAP therapy is not being presented correctly for a significant minority of your potential users is an issue for me: If you expect people to continually pay for your product, it ought to get the basic fundamental data presented accurately for everyone in your target audience right from the start of the launch.

To be clear, I believe that what y'all are doing is useful. And I don't begrudge you your idea of monetizing your efforts and trying to make a profit off your work. But if you are going to charge people for access to your product, then you owe it to all of your potential users to present the basic parts of the data---the pressure data, the flow rate data, the flagged events data, and the leak data---correctly. Everything else (including mask pressure) is bells & whistles and is designed for geeks/nerds who are into analyzing their data in a way that most folks don't. But the first time a user shows an incorrectly drawn SleepHQ pressure graph to their sleep doc or DME, that user is likely to be told that SleepHQ is a bunch of crap and should not be trusted. It is in your own interests to not have medical people looking at patient submitted data from SleepHQ and have those medical people conclude the program is not trustworthy.

As the person who submitted a detailed bug report (by email) concerning the important issue of the Pressure Curve being wrong for PR DreamStation BiPAPs, the only direct feedback I received said:
Hi Robin,
Thanks for getting in touch mate. We're not officially supporting BiPAP at the moment. The current implementation is only really designed for CPAP and APAP devices. We may add features for BiPAP in the future but for now we're concentrating on features like the O2 Ring integration and other CPAP/APAP metrics.

Cheers

Adam
The message that comes across, whether intended or not, is that accuracy of fundamental data of xPAP devices (pressure, flow rate, flagged events, and leaks) is less important to y'all than concentrating on other things that you believe are more marketable.

My point has been, and continues to be this: Why should any PR DreamStation user, regardless of whether they're using a PR APAP or a BiPAP or an ASV machine, trust your data if you can't get the basic pressure curve correct?

And I'm not asking that as a geek/nerd. I'm actually thinking of a new, rather naive user who only knows that their machine uses two pressures (EPAP and IPAP), their EPAP is supposed to go all the way down to 4cm because min EPAP = 4 and their IPAP is supposed to potentially go all the way up to max IPAP = 12cm, but they see only one pressure curve and it is trapped between 5.5cm and 8cm all night long. Even a naive, newbie user might question the accuracy of that data, and if they can't trust the pressure curve to look right, why should they believe any of the other basic graphs are correct?

adampal wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:24 am
This thread is quite long so I don't know if I've missed any other issues I should be aware of. I did see some comments about changing the scale of the Y-axis. We aren't trying to re-implement every feature in Oscar. We have our own list of features we're working on and this is not something we'll look at any time soon.
It's fine that you don't want to implement every aspect of Oscar. But being able to change the y-axis scale is a big part of doing data analysis if the default scale is too large to show the fine detail.

adampal wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:24 am
Having said that, if anyone has an example of why this is a required/must have feature for SleepHQ, I'm always open to other opinions.
Features that I think SleepHQ needs in order to be genuinely useful:

1) Ability to rearrange the order of the graphs. This is another Oscar feature that you probably don't intend to implement either. But here's the thing: the more features you add that are not based directly on the xPAP data, the greater the need there will be for a user to be able to re-order those graphs around so that they're looking at the data they want to look at without all the intermediate graphs getting in the way.

As an example: I know that mid-to-long term plans at SleepHQ include incorporating AppleWatch/FitBit sleep data. If that were to be implemented, there would be times when I would want that data right next to the flow rate curve. On the other hand, if its allergy season and I know that my snoring might be getting worse, the snore graph would be more important than the leak data or even the sleep stage data from the FitBit. And obviously, if I'm fighting leaks, I want that leak data above the snore data and the flow limitation graph. But if I consistently have little or no leaking night after night, the importance of that leak graph goes way, way down.

2) Ability to hide/show individual graphs. For PR DreamStation users, the non-existent Flow Limitation graph just gets in the way and takes up valuable real estate if you are trying to look at multiple graphs at the same time. For people without serious leak problems, it can be quite useful to turn the leak graph off and make room for another graph---particularly when y'all do incorporate things like the O2 data from your particular chosen O2 ring and sleep stage data from AppleWatches or FitBits.

3) An event table/sleep therapy flags table. Yes, you have all of the events flagged on the flow rate graph---but if there are clusters of events, those labels can be difficult to actually read until you start zooming in. A simple table of events where each event is a tick mark on an appropriately labeled line is a common way of presenting this data on both sleep study reports as well as programs like Encore, ResScan, and Oscar. In other words, this is not "an Oscar" feature---it's a basic, common tool across multiple platforms. And because it is a commonly accepted way of presenting this data, the fact that it is missing in SleepHQ makes SleepHQ look less "professional"---i.e. this is something that professionals will be looking for if/when one of their patients presents detailed data from SleepHQ at a follow-up visit to discuss how xPAP therapy is going for them. Here are examples:

From my first diagnostic sleep study:
Image

From an Encore Report:
Image

From an Oscar Report (for a Resmed machine):
Image
Last edited by robysue1 on Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:12 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: SleepHQ--Any New Constructive Suggestions for Them?

Post by lazarus » Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:36 am

ozij wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:28 am
lazarus wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:08 am
Rubicon wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:01 am
And I didn't even see Adam move his lips!!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Can anyone explain the joke for me?
I took it upon myself to act as Adam's puppet, as in ventriloquism.

Rubicon was not asking me the questions, but I answered anyway.

Rubicon made a serious point in a highly entertaining way, as he tends to do.
The people who confuse "entomology" and "etymology" really bug me beyond words.
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Re: SleepHQ--Any New Constructive Suggestions for Them?

Post by Rubicon » Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:52 am

lazarus wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:36 am
ozij wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:28 am
lazarus wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:08 am
Rubicon wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:01 am
And I didn't even see Adam move his lips!!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Can anyone explain the joke for me?
I took it upon myself to act as Adam's puppet, as in ventriloquism.

Rubicon was not asking me the questions, but I answered anyway.

Rubicon made a serious point in a highly entertaining way, as he tends to do.
I'm also not real happy about his thinly veiled threat:
adampal wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:24 am

I had a few people send me links to this thread raising concerns people here might be deliberately trying to disrupt the new community forum we just started for SleepHQ. What you guys choose to allow/disallow on this forum is completely up to you. But as one of the moderators and owners of SleepHQ, I'm not ok with any form of harassment or deliberately trying to take away from the experience of CPAP users on our forum who are trying to educate themselves and create better life outcomes.
I don't see anything disruptive in this thread. If there is he should quote them specifically. Personally and IMO my comments are absolutely valid and he should address them.

That is, if his purpose is to improve his board and not flex beer muscles.
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Re: SleepHQ--Any New Constructive Suggestions for Them?

Post by lazarus » Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:56 am

And then RobySue1 totally hands them about $5,000 U.S. worth of industry-level advice and observation for free.

Wow!
Last edited by lazarus on Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
The people who confuse "entomology" and "etymology" really bug me beyond words.
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Re: SleepHQ--Any New Constructive Suggestions for Them?

Post by ozij » Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:59 am

lazarus wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:36 am
ozij wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:28 am
lazarus wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:08 am
Rubicon wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:01 am
And I didn't even see Adam move his lips!!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Can anyone explain the joke for me?
I took it upon myself to act as Adam's puppet, as in ventriloquism.

Rubicon was not asking me the questions, but I answered anyway.

Rubicon made a serious point in a highly entertaining way, as he tends to do.
lol:
Got it!
Thanks, Jeff.

[edited to add the quote]

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Last edited by ozij on Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SleepHQ--Any New Constructive Suggestions for Them?

Post by Rubicon » Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:10 am

lazarus wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:56 am
And then RobySue1 totally hands them about $5,000 U.S. worth of jndustry-level advice and observation for free.
I feel like we're in a factory in Thailand making running shoes.
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Re: SleepHQ--Any New Constructive Suggestions for Them?

Post by Rubicon » Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:19 am

Y'know, ya gotta wonder how much effort they really want to spend on therapy support.

In Ask For Help:
Nick wrote:With thousands of people using SleepHQ daily, Adam & I can't provide technical support on our own. If you need some technical help, here's the space to ask the community.
In Bean-Counterese:
If it ain't making money, it ain't.
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Re: SleepHQ--Any New Constructive Suggestions for Them?

Post by lazarus » Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:24 am

Rubicon wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:19 am
wonder how much effort
I've been trying to call the Frontier Airlines customer service phone number to ask about that.
The people who confuse "entomology" and "etymology" really bug me beyond words.
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Re: SleepHQ--Any New Constructive Suggestions for Them?

Post by lazarus » Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:38 am

You are welcome, Ozij.

For the board: Ozij has a highly perceptive sense of humor. But (although you'd never guess) English is not her primarily-used language.
The people who confuse "entomology" and "etymology" really bug me beyond words.
---
A love song to a CPAP? Oh please!:
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Re: SleepHQ--Any New Constructive Suggestions for Them?

Post by robysue1 » Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:03 pm

Rubicon wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:19 am
Y'know, ya gotta wonder how much effort they really want to spend on therapy support.

In Ask For Help:
Nick wrote:With thousands of people using SleepHQ daily, Adam & I can't provide technical support on our own. If you need some technical help, here's the space to ask the community.
I gotta ask: Just how many of those thousands of people using SleepHQ daily are going to disappear after concluding the pay version just ain't worth $15/month or whatever it is they plan on charging? Particularly if the program seems "buggy" during the trial period and technical support is not transparent?

I mean I can see continuing to use SleepHQ as a basic tool, as long as the freebie version lets you upload the data and look at it and link to it, you can just keep using the freebie version and find a friendly free sleep apnea/cpap forum (like us or even apneaboard) and post your therapy-related questions for free including the links to the data in your post and not bother with the for-pay forums at SleepHQ.

I just can't see paying money month after month for access to forums and having my xPAP's data stored indefinitely on a web server. I mean, I know I'm a geek for still having data from 2010 loaded into SleepyHead and still caring a tiny and decreasing amount about the fact I've "lost" several months of data when my System One apparently just quit recording data while my MIL was still using my DreamStation because Medicare had decided she didn't need a bi-level machine to help her cope with some complications of COPD. But there's actually no practical value in hanging on to data that is more than a few months old. And any real geek who cares about data that much will just gravitate to using Oscar or even getting the proprietary software for their machine from apneaboard. (To this day, if I want to print data out for a doctor, I'm inclined to go through the trouble of booting up Encore/ResScan and using the official software to create the printout rather than rely on Oscar.)

Then again, I'm also someone who has not opted to pay for the premium version of FitBit since I don't see any real benefits in paying month after month for marginally more data than I can get for free and community forum stuff that I don't really need.
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Re: SleepHQ--Any New Constructive Suggestions for Them?

Post by Dog Slobber » Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:05 pm

adampal wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:24 am

I had a few people send me links to this thread raising concerns people here might be deliberately trying to disrupt the new community forum we just started for SleepHQ. What you guys choose to allow/disallow on this forum is completely up to you. But as one of the moderators and owners of SleepHQ, I'm not ok with any form of harassment or deliberately trying to take away from the experience of CPAP users on our forum who are trying to educate themselves and create better life outcomes.
Are you making your allegations based on actual statements made in this thread, or because people told you they were being made?

Because, I don't see anything that suggests what you're alleging. Feel free to quote the posts that support, people here are deliberately disrupting your new community.

adampal wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:24 am
We're not always going to get things right on the first try and I'm more than happy to admit when we get it wrong and do my best to correct it.
Nobodies complaining that you're not always going to get things right.

Being happy to admit mistakes is admirable.

It's unfortunate that Uncle Nicko doesn't have the same quality. Not only will he not admit mistakes, he won't even consider it. He considers discussion about bugs, debate and will have nothing to do with it.

Here's what he had to say on the bug that you are now happy to admit you got wrong.
Wanderlustralia wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:30 pm
The browsers would crash in an instant if they were hit with super high res data with hundreds of thousands of data points. It would cause all sorts of performance issues. The data is the same, ....
Wanderlustralia wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:04 pm
The info i provided was accurate. I'm not here for a debate. Cheers
Do you think that's a good quality to have when he is advising people on how to create better life outcomes?

When he is challenged after giving advice, do you think the correct approach is to close the thread?

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Re: SleepHQ--Any New Constructive Suggestions for Them?

Post by palerider » Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:22 pm

adampal wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:24 am
I had a few people send me links to this thread raising concerns people here might be deliberately trying to disrupt the new community forum we just started for SleepHQ.
You need to understand the difference between "deliberately trying to disrupt" and "striving for accuracy.

When you're the one that's wrong, it can often be difficult to step back and say "hey, this person's just correcting inaccuracies" instead of writing them off as someone just trying to cause trouble.

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Re: SleepHQ--Any New Constructive Suggestions for Them?

Post by palerider » Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:27 pm

lazarus wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:56 am
And then RobySue1 totally hands them about $5,000 U.S. worth of industry-level advice and observation for free.

Wow!
Which they'll probably ignore, mate, because NIH.

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Re: SleepHQ--Any New Constructive Suggestions for Them?

Post by palerider » Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:32 pm

$leepHQ, There's buckets of money to be made mate, we'll be set for life!

Thousands of users at $15 (USD or AUD?, big difference), vs a few bucks a couple hundred a month (USD) to run the servers...

They're seeing a CA$H COW! mooo.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but that's the way it looks.

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Re: SleepHQ--Any New Constructive Suggestions for Them?

Post by zonker » Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:38 pm

adampal wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:24 am

But as one of the moderators and owners of SleepHQ, I'm not ok with any form of harassment or deliberately trying to take away from the experience of CPAP users on our forum who are trying to educate themselves and create better life outcomes. I'll never do anything to disrupt or take away from the user's experience of this forum and I would hope that that courtesy can be extended both ways.
please show where any forum member did anything that you would consider "harassment or deliberately trying to take away from the experience"?

also, bear in mind that the forum has an unofficial goal of protecting members from being charged for something that they could get for free i.e. oscar software. with that in mind, you are going to get a bit of push back on your software. part of this, of course, is down to the fact that we've been using oscar (nee sleepyhead) for a very long time. and we always try to discourage people who use things like the myair app. mostly because the forum members can give answers more quickly to someones problem if the present data in oscar format.

if you continue on with your software development(and i hope you do.) chances are people are still going to end up here looking for advice. so i really want folk here to get used to your software, so they can give good advice one they read the charts your software produces.

but please DO read the entire thread.

good luck!
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