These are NOT Clear Airways

If there's anything I learnt. Choppy flow rate accompanied by leaks typically flag false Clear Airways, agreed?

https://imgur.com/gallery/jwimly1

They are clear airway events, but they are unlikely to be central apneas.

What would you call them?

The LankyLeft27 talks about these that have garbage or junk breathing before hand (likely waking up) as being false flagged CA's.

At least that's what I've gathered from his videos. Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.

I thought central apneas and clear airways were the same thing.

LSAT wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:58 pm

What would you call them?

Breath Holding maybe while awake. But the pattern after looks like sleeping.

SeanyB011 wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:04 pm

I thought central apneas and clear airways were the same thing.

The term "clear airway" a phrase that was made up by philips respironics, they're the only ones that use the term.

The rest of the industry uses the term "central".

So while granny doesn't 'get' that distinction, they *are* the same.

It's important to distinguish a central SLEEP apnea vs a post arousal apnea flagged as a central by a machine.

palerider wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:02 pm

So while granny doesn't 'get' that distinction, they *are* the same.

As recorded by Philips machines, clear airway apneas are the set of all breathing cessations (>10 seconds) when the airway is open. Of this set, the subsets are central apneas, reflexive breath holding, and conscious breath holding.

So, no, the set of clear airway apneas is not the same as the set of central apneas.

ChicagoGranny wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:09 pm

palerider wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:02 pm

So while granny doesn't 'get' that distinction, they *are* the same.

As recorded by Philips machines, clear airway apneas are the set of all breathing cessations (>10 seconds) when the airway is open. Of this set, the subsets are central apneas, reflexive breath holding, and conscious breath holding.

So, no, the set of clear airway apneas is not the same as the set of central apneas.

And yet, the same exact criteria are used by all other brands machines and called CENTRAL apnea.

Absent chest and abdomen bands, and EEG to determine breath effort and sleep stage, you're just needlessly clouding the waters, which seems to be one of your malicious gleeful activities.

palerider wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:14 pm

And yet, the same exact criteria are used by all other brands machines and called CENTRAL apnea.

Yes, the other brands called them central apneas. And what are the results of this nomenclature? Thousands of people with plain OSA get scared that they have central (or complex) apnea. Thousands of times Pugsy has to explain to them that they don't have central apnea.

Philips did everything wrong except correctly naming these events as clear airway events. The confusion is because the other manufacturers call all these events central apneas when the majority are not central apneas.

ChicagoGranny wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:49 am

palerider wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:14 pm

And yet, the same exact criteria are used by all other brands machines and called CENTRAL apnea.

Yes, the other brands called them central apneas. And what are the results of this nomenclature? Thousands of people with plain OSA get scared that they have central (or complex) apnea. Thousands of times Pugsy has to explain to them that they don't have central apnea.

Philips did everything wrong except correctly naming these events as clear airway events. The confusion is because the other manufacturers call all these events central apneas when the majority are not central apneas.

You almost got that right.. except you didn't put a period after "Philips did everything wrong"<PERIOD>

The machines, Resmed and the rest of the entire sleep industry, are correct in labeling events where there is no breathing (apnea) and airway is not occluded, thus no breathing *EFFORT* (central) as a "central apnea".

The simple point that continues to elude you is that a central apnea does not always mean a central SLEEP apnea.

One can most certainly have central apneas while awake, and given the notoriously irregular irregular awake breathing, most of us will likely hold our breaths for 10+ seconds while doing other things during the day, but we usually don't have a machine monitoring our breathing while away, going about our business.

All your refusal to have some sense does is further confuse the issue.

The simple truth of the matter is that transitional apneas, while usually central in nature, simply DO NOT MATTER.

palerider wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:28 am

The simple point that continues to elude you is that a central apnea does not always mean a central SLEEP apnea.

One can most certainly have central apneas while awake,

No, humans do not have central apneas while awake. The medical profession does not consider events while awake to be "awake central apnea", although laymen may confuse the issue by speaking of it as apnea.

palerider wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:28 am

most of us will likely hold our breaths for 10+ seconds while doing other things during the day

Yes, like holding your breath while struggling to lift a heavy weight or even something as simple as changing positions in bed. Lumping these in with true central apneas causes a lot of confusion. Hardly a week goes by when someone doesn't come here concerned about their machine flagging central apneas. Tirelessly, Pugsy goes to length to explain that they are not central apneas and are of no concern. They are merely clear airway apneas due to reflexively holding one's breath while awake and moving in bed.

Let's leave central apnea as a sometimes serious disorder that can benefit from treatment. Reflexively holding one's breath while in bed (a subset of clear airway apnea as flagged by CPAP) is a less serious condition that might be improved by good sleep hygiene.

ChicagoGranny wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:16 am

palerider wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:28 am

The simple point that continues to elude you is that a central apnea does not always mean a central SLEEP apnea.

One can most certainly have central apneas while awake,

No, humans do not have central apneas while awake. The medical profession does not consider events while awake to be "awake central apnea", although laymen may confuse the issue by speaking of it as apnea.

Where did you get your medical degree? When did you get appointed to speak for "the medical profession" as a whole?

ChicagoGranny wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:16 am

palerider wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:28 am

most of us will likely hold our breaths for 10+ seconds while doing other things during the day

Lumping these in with true central apneas causes a lot of confusion.

You're the one causing confusion.

ChicagoGranny wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:16 am

Hardly a week goes by when someone doesn't come here concerned about their machine flagging central apneas. Tirelessly, Pugsy goes to length to explain that they are not central apneas and are of no concern.

Perhaps if you actually READ something that Pugsy writes, you'd have at least a bit of understanding.

She has never said "those aren't central apneas", what she *HAS* said, repeatedly, is that those are *post arousal centrals", and would be discounted in a lab study.

ChicagoGranny wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:16 am

Let's leave central apnea as a sometimes serious disorder that can benefit from treatment. Reflexively holding one's breath while in bed (a subset of clear airway apnea as flagged by CPAP) is a less serious condition that might be improved by good sleep hygiene.

Are you really as clueless as you're acting like you are?

Central apneas, as flagged by CPAPs, are rarely a "serious disorder", they're more often than not treatment emergent CENTRAL SLEEP APNEA. no matter what YOU might keep blathering about.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7725531/
https://www.uptodate.com/contents/treat ... leep-apnea
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... c-20352109
https://jtd.amegroups.com/article/view/16430/html
https://www.sleepfoundation.org/sleep-a ... leep-apnea
https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8196

Number of times the phrase "clear airway" appears in the above links? ZERO.

Further evidence that you're full of crap (at least on this subject):


search google for: "clear airway apnea" -respironics -philips
42 results.
Oh, it looks like 3B medical may have copied them, though they're saying "Open airway", oh, wait, they still say "central".

search google for "central apnea"
About 694,000 results

"clear airway" is a term that was made up by Philips Respironics.

In the past, when Pugsy was out on vacation you've told me to tell you when you're (let's be charitable and say "being unreasonable")...

I'm telling you.

palerider wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:31 pm

Perhaps if you actually READ something that Pugsy writes, you'd have at least a bit of understanding.

She has never said "those aren't central apneas", what she *HAS* said, repeatedly, is that those are *post arousal centrals", and would be discounted in a lab study.

Instead of trusting your memory, let's just check what Pugsy has said. Here is a recent comment.

Bear in mind that while the videos are mainly talking about centrals/Clear Airway apnea flags from arousal/awake breathing that it isn't limited to just false positive central flags.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=184767&p=1417771&hi ... l#p1417771

She called them "false positive central flags" in her most recent comment about them.

palerider wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:31 pm

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7725531/
https://www.uptodate.com/contents/treat ... leep-apnea
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... c-20352109
https://jtd.amegroups.com/article/view/16430/html
https://www.sleepfoundation.org/sleep-a ... leep-apnea
https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8196

Number of times the phrase "clear airway" appears in the above links? ZERO.

This is a strawman argument. Nowhere in this thread was a claim that the medical profession (outside of Respironics) uses the term "clear airway". As far as I know, Respironics coined the term and uses it more than anyone else.

I'm sorry. I did mean to set you off so badly and have you crouched over your computer finding all those links. You might want to get back to actually helping people. You are good at that when you want to.

False positive in the fact that we aren’t asleep when flagged since the machine can’t tell asleep or awake.
They still meet the definition of a central apnea though or else they wouldn’t have earned a flag.
I didn’t mean they weren’t central apneas.

There are awake/arousal central apneas……no air is moving because no effort is made and lasts 10 seconds. Technically the definition is met.

There are real asleep central apneas……same definition as above.

I personally don’t like using the term clear airway apnea and I wish to hell the OSCAR writer dudes hadn’t decided to continue its use.
Totally confusing.

Pugsy wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:43 pm

There are awake/arousal central apneas……no air is moving because no effort is made and lasts 10 seconds. Technically the definition is met.

I wish this machine did some sort of arousal measuring. I'm not too concerned about the CA's because they are fairly low and I've heard they're common when starting CPAP. My arousal index on the other hand and periodic breathing would have to be through the roof!