These are NOT Clear Airways

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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latskogkatt
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Re: These are NOT Clear Airways

Post by latskogkatt » Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:31 pm

I wish this machine did some sort of arousal measuring.
I believe the only way to do that would be to use EEG, so you'd have to wear those electrodes glued to your scalp every time you sleep.

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ozij
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Re: These are NOT Clear Airways

Post by ozij » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:30 pm

Apnea is non-breathing.
Obstructive non-breathing episodes are caused by obstructions.
Obstructive sleep apneas are the result of obstructions caused by sleep.
Central apneas are non-breathing episodes presumably caused by the central nervous system not giving the command to breathe.
Central sleep non-breathing episode episodes are those that happen when you're asleep and yet nothing is obstructing your airway. Something messing up with your urge to breathe, when you're asleep.

All auto algorithms have to figure out whether the airway is obstructed - which is a reason to raise pressure or clear in order to to cease and desist.


Which is why I happen to like the expression "clear airway" apnea: it's a simple, operational term describing the state of the airway as identified by the machine's algorithm at that point. The machine has figured out that the airway is clear, and therefore is not raising the pressure. That's all. It just says: based on the machine's way of identifying your breathing, your airway was clear a that point in time, and yet you were not breathing.

All the rest is interpretation.

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ChicagoGranny
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Re: These are NOT Clear Airways

Post by ChicagoGranny » Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:32 am

ozij wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:30 pm
Which is why I happen to like the expression "clear airway" apnea: it's a simple, operational term describing the state of the airway as identified by the machine's algorithm at that point. The machine has figured out that the airway is clear, and therefore is not raising the pressure. That's all. It just says: based on the machine's way of identifying your breathing, your airway was clear a that point in time, and yet you were not breathing.

All the rest is interpretation.
That nails it. I suspect that is the exact reason Respironics and the OSCAR developers decided to use clear airway terminology.

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Re: These are NOT Clear Airways

Post by dataq1 » Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:58 am

Are type 4 sleep studies capable of distinguishing obstructive apnea events and central/clear airway apneas?

(For example watchpat)
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Rubicon
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Re: These are NOT Clear Airways

Post by Rubicon » Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:49 am

ChicagoGranny wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:09 pm
...reflexive breath holding, and conscious breath holding.
As breath holding is created by closure of the glottis, IMO those would never be flagged as clear airway apneas.
Last edited by Rubicon on Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rubicon
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Re: These are NOT Clear Airways

Post by Rubicon » Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:52 am

LSAT wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 3:58 pm
What would you call them?
Post-arousal centrals.
Freeze this moment a little bit longer.
Make each sensation a little bit stronger.
Experience slips away.

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palerider
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Re: These are NOT Clear Airways

Post by palerider » Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:10 am

ChicagoGranny wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:23 pm
You might want to get back to actually helping people. You are good at that when you want to.
You might STOP confusing people with your nonsense, you're good at that when you try to be helpful, at least, you used to be.

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Re: These are NOT Clear Airways

Post by palerider » Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:11 am

SeanyB011 wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:19 pm
Pugsy wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:43 pm

There are awake/arousal central apneas……no air is moving because no effort is made and lasts 10 seconds. Technically the definition is met.
I wish this machine did some sort of arousal measuring. I'm not too concerned about the CA's because they are fairly low and I've heard they're common when starting CPAP. My arousal index on the other hand and periodic breathing would have to be through the roof!
Without wires on your head, the machine can't do anything more than guess about arousals.

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Re: These are NOT Clear Airways

Post by palerider » Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:17 am

ChicagoGranny wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:32 am
ozij wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:30 pm
Which is why I happen to like the expression "clear airway" apnea: it's a simple, operational term describing the state of the airway as identified by the machine's algorithm at that point. The machine has figured out that the airway is clear, and therefore is not raising the pressure. That's all. It just says: based on the machine's way of identifying your breathing, your airway was clear a that point in time, and yet you were not breathing.

All the rest is interpretation.
That nails it. I suspect that is the exact reason Respironics and the OSCAR developers decided to use clear airway terminology.
I love how you just ignore the fact that Pugsy said you'd gotten it wrong.

OSCAR uses the term "clear airway" because sleepyhead was originally written for the PHILIPS Respironics system one. Just one of the many things they screwed up.

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ChicagoGranny
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Re: These are NOT Clear Airways

Post by ChicagoGranny » Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:06 am

Rubicon wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:49 am
ChicagoGranny wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:09 pm
...reflexive breath holding, and conscious breath holding.
As breath holding is created by closure of the glottis, IMO those would never be flagged as clear airway apneas.
This study found that the epiglottis is sometimes closed and sometimes open during breath holding.
Some subjects closed the glottis, while others had variable amounts of glottic opening.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8285515/

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Rubicon
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Re: These are NOT Clear Airways

Post by Rubicon » Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:53 pm

ChicagoGranny wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:06 am
This study found that the epiglottis is ... sometimes open during breath holding.
Not exactly.

They noted:
variable amounts of glottic opening
and that was only during easy-breath holding. During hard breath hold the cords pretty much slammed shut.

That said, the question is what the algorithm will read. And again, IMO it won't read "clear airway".
Freeze this moment a little bit longer.
Make each sensation a little bit stronger.
Experience slips away.