How to determine Good Sleep?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
Billymadison420
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Re: How to determine Good Sleep?

Post by Billymadison420 » Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:34 pm

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Last edited by Billymadison420 on Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Billymadison420
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Re: How to determine Good Sleep?

Post by Billymadison420 » Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:26 am

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Last edited by Billymadison420 on Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Billymadison420
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Re: How to determine Good Sleep?

Post by Billymadison420 » Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:26 pm

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Last edited by Billymadison420 on Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to determine Good Sleep?

Post by Billymadison420 » Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:41 pm

Any consensus on quick naps on the couch without CPAP?

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Pugsy
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Re: How to determine Good Sleep?

Post by Pugsy » Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:45 pm

Billymadison420 wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:41 pm
Any consensus on quick naps on the couch without CPAP?
You think the OSA takes a break from closing down your airway tissues just because "you are on the couch without the machine" ??
You think you get a mulligan for short nap on the couch and the OSA will give you a pass??

The general consensus is.....if you are asleep or going to maybe go to sleep.....you wear the mask and use the machine. No exceptions.
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Billymadison420
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Re: How to determine Good Sleep?

Post by Billymadison420 » Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:59 pm

Pugsy wrote:
Billymadison420 wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:41 pm
Any consensus on quick naps on the couch without CPAP?
You think the OSA takes a break from closing down your airway tissues just because "you are on the couch without the machine" ??
You think you get a mulligan for short nap on the couch and the OSA will give you a pass??

The general consensus is.....if you are asleep or going to maybe go to sleep.....you wear the mask and use the machine. No exceptions.
I guess a 30 min nap on the couch doesn’t seem overly harmful if I lived the last 15 years of OSA without any/many health consequences. Image


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Pugsy
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Re: How to determine Good Sleep?

Post by Pugsy » Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:05 pm

Billymadison420 wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:59 pm
I guess a 30 min nap on the couch doesn’t seem overly harmful if I lived the last 15 years of OSA without any/many health co
Go ahead and rationalize it (or try to) but the general consensus....if asleep then the OSA needs to be treated.
Now you didn't ask me if I always adhered to that rule.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Mask: Bleep no headgear mask.. https://bleepsleep.com/
Machine: AirCurve 10 VAuto

I may have to RISE but I refuse to SHINE.

Billymadison420
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Re: How to determine Good Sleep?

Post by Billymadison420 » Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:07 pm

Pugsy wrote:
Billymadison420 wrote:
Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:59 pm
I guess a 30 min nap on the couch doesn’t seem overly harmful if I lived the last 15 years of OSA without any/many health co
Go ahead and rationalize it (or try to) but the general consensus....if asleep then the OSA needs to be treated.
Now you didn't ask me if I always adhered to that rule.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Image
I’m calling the authorities


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Billymadison420
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Re: How to determine Good Sleep?

Post by Billymadison420 » Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:41 pm

2 questions

1. what is the minimum time for OSCAR to write data?
2. This goes back to a thread i saw. How to tell the difference between CA's that precedes sleep, and CA's that are awake breathing where you take a deep breath and hold or just forget to breathe?

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robysue1
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Re: How to determine Good Sleep?

Post by robysue1 » Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:24 pm

Billymadison420 wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:41 pm
2 questions

1. what is the minimum time for OSCAR to write data?
2. This goes back to a thread i saw. How to tell the difference between CA's that precedes sleep, and CA's that are awake breathing where you take a deep breath and hold or just forget to breathe?
Answer to1: If your machine writes the data to the SD card, OSCAR will read the data from the SD card. If you turn the machine on with the mask on your nose even briefly (for a couple of minutes) there should be data written to the card for OSCAR to read.

Answer to 2: Without the EEG data and the "effort" data recorded by the belts during a sleep test, no-one can definitively answer whether a particular CA is sleep transition, part of awake breathing, or a real CA that would be scored on a sleep test. However, if you spend a lot of time looking at data, you start to understand certain patterns that are commonly associated with times that sleep transition are likely, what wake breathing typically looks like, and what your sleep breathing typically looks like.

The main thing is this: Sleep breathing is much, much more regular than wake breathing. And sleep breathing is usually more shallow than sleep breathing.

_________________
Machine: DreamStation BiPAP® Auto Machine
Mask: Swift™ FX Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: DreamStation Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Also use a P10 mask
Joined as robysue on 9/18/10. Forgot my password & the email I used was on a machine that has long since died & gone to computer heaven.

Correct number of posts is 7250 as robysue + what I have as robysue1

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Billymadison420
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Re: How to determine Good Sleep?

Post by Billymadison420 » Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:42 pm

robysue1 wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:24 pm
Billymadison420 wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 12:41 pm
2 questions

1. what is the minimum time for OSCAR to write data?
2. This goes back to a thread i saw. How to tell the difference between CA's that precedes sleep, and CA's that are awake breathing where you take a deep breath and hold or just forget to breathe?
Answer to1: If your machine writes the data to the SD card, OSCAR will read the data from the SD card. If you turn the machine on with the mask on your nose even briefly (for a couple of minutes) there should be data written to the card for OSCAR to read.

Answer to 2: Without the EEG data and the "effort" data recorded by the belts during a sleep test, no-one can definitively answer whether a particular CA is sleep transition, part of awake breathing, or a real CA that would be scored on a sleep test. However, if you spend a lot of time looking at data, you start to understand certain patterns that are commonly associated with times that sleep transition are likely, what wake breathing typically looks like, and what your sleep breathing typically looks like.

The main thing is this: Sleep breathing is much, much more regular than wake breathing. And sleep breathing is usually more shallow than sleep breathing.

Thank you! Re: #2 to test that theory, I did a session for 30 minutes while I was totally awake and sitting. I held my breath on purpose a few times. I got multiple CA's and OA flags. So clearly it's not perfect, and like you said, without an EEG you can't really know when you were asleep.

My MSLT sleep latency was 16 minutes. It seems that using the CPAP data from home my sleep latency is the same at home. So, as my MSLT/PSG showed, i do not have N/IH. I am tired and fatigued, but I do not have a neurological sleep disorder. Sigh...

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Dog Slobber
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Re: How to determine Good Sleep?

Post by Dog Slobber » Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:42 pm

Billymadison420 wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:42 pm
I held my breath on purpose a few times. I got multiple CA's and OA flags. So clearly it's not perfect
What did you expect, an HB (Holding Breath) Flag?

Holding one's breath is not a CA, nor an OA, but the process you use to hold your breath may have characteristics of both. Judging the quality of the algorithm, by doing something the machine is not designed to test for, is silly.

Billymadison420
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Re: How to determine Good Sleep?

Post by Billymadison420 » Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:07 pm

Dog Slobber wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:42 pm
Billymadison420 wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:42 pm
I held my breath on purpose a few times. I got multiple CA's and OA flags. So clearly it's not perfect
What did you expect, an HB (Holding Breath) Flag?

Holding one's breath is not a CA, nor an OA, but the process you use to hold your breath may have characteristics of both. Judging the quality of the algorithm, by doing something the machine is not designed to test for, is silly.
I could have sworn that Resmed and Oscar had such a flag :P

But in all seriousness. It's me being obsessive. I want to feel better and have more energy. My OSA is totally treated. My MSLT says I don't have a neurological sleep disorder (as well as my Board Certified Sleep Specialist), and the Specialist has debunked everything that the first person I saw (a pulmonologist and not a sleep specialist) said about me having N/IH. So me being an obsessive weirdo has been trying to do an at home MSLT to check my sleep latencies with my crackpot theory that maybe my sleep latencies would be lower at home, than in a lab. Although I am not sure what that would prove either LOL. Because my sleep latency wouldn't go from 16m in a lab, to 8 at home. The margin of error accounts for that.

But even if we do that, with my unscientific test, my sleep latencies with naps at home (with me looking at OSCAR data and seeing the sleep-wake breathing vs. asleep), you get sleep latencies of (and I am doing what they do in the lab and calling anything over 20, 20) of:

14 20 20 14 11 20 20 14 17 13 7 20 (minutes)

That's an average of 15.87, which was a 16 on my official MSLT. And that's not naps on the same day. So I would imagine it would be even higher spaced out as 4-5 naps in a single day.

I don't know what I think I am looking for. Maybe everyone else just feels as tired as I do, or at least similar to what I feel. I know I am tired and not sleepy. I admit, despite the fact the N/IH issue has been debunked, that I am still making myself wrong for feeling tired and that is a learned behavior from being told that I have N/IH. So I hyper-monitor my tiredness and make myself wrong for feeling that. I am trying to do CBT/Mindfuless to unwire this reaction. Before I was ever told about N/IH (which I don't have) I didn't make myself wrong for being tired.

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robysue1
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Re: How to determine Good Sleep?

Post by robysue1 » Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:19 pm

Billymadison420 wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:07 pm
Dog Slobber wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:42 pm
Billymadison420 wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:42 pm
I held my breath on purpose a few times. I got multiple CA's and OA flags. So clearly it's not perfect
What did you expect, an HB (Holding Breath) Flag?

Holding one's breath is not a CA, nor an OA, but the process you use to hold your breath may have characteristics of both. Judging the quality of the algorithm, by doing something the machine is not designed to test for, is silly.
I could have sworn that Resmed and Oscar had such a flag :P
Yep, you proved that the Resmed assumes that you are asleep whenever you are breathing with the machine on and that it will flag anything it detects something that meets its designers definition of OA, CA, and H.

But more importantly, you also now have a 30 minute period of wake breathing to look at. If you compare this 30 minute session's flow rate curve to that of a period of sleep breathing from decent night, you should see that this 30 minute chunk of wake breathing is far less regular and also contains breaths that are far bigger than your normal sleep breathing. If you take the time to study the shapes and sizes of the breaths along with their variety, you'll be better able to start distinguishing between periods where you might be awake or where you might be drifting in and out of a light sleep (i.e. SWJ, which is an unofficial shorthand for "sleep-wake-junk" breathing).

The fact that the machine can and does mistake some wake breathing patterns as OAs, CAs, or Hs is why we tend to try to tease out whether a person might have been lying in bed awake if there are a lot of events scored right at the start or end of the data where it's reasonable to assume a person might be lying in bed with the mask on while not being asleep.
But in all seriousness. It's me being obsessive. I want to feel better and have more energy. My OSA is totally treated. My MSLT says I don't have a neurological sleep disorder (as well as my Board Certified Sleep Specialist), and the Specialist has debunked everything that the first person I saw (a pulmonologist and not a sleep specialist) said about me having N/IH. So me being an obsessive weirdo has been trying to do an at home MSLT to check my sleep latencies with my crackpot theory that maybe my sleep latencies would be lower at home, than in a lab. Although I am not sure what that would prove either LOL. Because my sleep latency wouldn't go from 16m in a lab, to 8 at home. The margin of error accounts for that.

But even if we do that, with my unscientific test, my sleep latencies with naps at home (with me looking at OSCAR data and seeing the sleep-wake breathing vs. asleep), you get sleep latencies of (and I am doing what they do in the lab and calling anything over 20, 20) of:

14 20 20 14 11 20 20 14 17 13 7 20 (minutes)

That's an average of 15.87, which was a 16 on my official MSLT. And that's not naps on the same day. So I would imagine it would be even higher spaced out as 4-5 naps in a single day.
I think your little experiment has actually been quite useful in getting you to accept the very real possibility that the pulmonologist's intuition about the narcolepsy was not based on any actual data and could very well be wrong. Whereas the sleep doc's telling you that the results of the MSLT indicate that you do not have narcolepsy is based on some data that actually has some connections to your day-to-day life.
I don't know what I think I am looking for. Maybe everyone else just feels as tired as I do, or at least similar to what I feel. I know I am tired and not sleepy. I admit, despite the fact the N/IH issue has been debunked, that I am still making myself wrong for feeling tired and that is a learned behavior from being told that I have N/IH. So I hyper-monitor my tiredness and make myself wrong for feeling that. I am trying to do CBT/Mindfuless to unwire this reaction. Before I was ever told about N/IH (which I don't have) I didn't make myself wrong for being tired.
Lots and lots of things can cause daytime fatigue and daytime exhaustion. Depression and anxiety are two big possibilities in your case since you've said that you suffer from them. Some medications can trigger fatigue. I think what you want to do is accept that the fatigue and exhaustion may be triggered by something other than a sleep problem.

_________________
Machine: DreamStation BiPAP® Auto Machine
Mask: Swift™ FX Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: DreamStation Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Also use a P10 mask
Joined as robysue on 9/18/10. Forgot my password & the email I used was on a machine that has long since died & gone to computer heaven.

Correct number of posts is 7250 as robysue + what I have as robysue1

Profile pic: Frozen Niagara Falls

Billymadison420
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:02 pm

Re: How to determine Good Sleep?

Post by Billymadison420 » Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:31 am

robysue1 wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:19 pm
Billymadison420 wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 3:07 pm
Dog Slobber wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:42 pm
Billymadison420 wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 1:42 pm
I held my breath on purpose a few times. I got multiple CA's and OA flags. So clearly it's not perfect
What did you expect, an HB (Holding Breath) Flag?

Holding one's breath is not a CA, nor an OA, but the process you use to hold your breath may have characteristics of both. Judging the quality of the algorithm, by doing something the machine is not designed to test for, is silly.
I could have sworn that Resmed and Oscar had such a flag :P
Yep, you proved that the Resmed assumes that you are asleep whenever you are breathing with the machine on and that it will flag anything it detects something that meets its designers definition of OA, CA, and H.

But more importantly, you also now have a 30 minute period of wake breathing to look at. If you compare this 30 minute session's flow rate curve to that of a period of sleep breathing from decent night, you should see that this 30 minute chunk of wake breathing is far less regular and also contains breaths that are far bigger than your normal sleep breathing. If you take the time to study the shapes and sizes of the breaths along with their variety, you'll be better able to start distinguishing between periods where you might be awake or where you might be drifting in and out of a light sleep (i.e. SWJ, which is an unofficial shorthand for "sleep-wake-junk" breathing).

The fact that the machine can and does mistake some wake breathing patterns as OAs, CAs, or Hs is why we tend to try to tease out whether a person might have been lying in bed awake if there are a lot of events scored right at the start or end of the data where it's reasonable to assume a person might be lying in bed with the mask on while not being asleep.
But in all seriousness. It's me being obsessive. I want to feel better and have more energy. My OSA is totally treated. My MSLT says I don't have a neurological sleep disorder (as well as my Board Certified Sleep Specialist), and the Specialist has debunked everything that the first person I saw (a pulmonologist and not a sleep specialist) said about me having N/IH. So me being an obsessive weirdo has been trying to do an at home MSLT to check my sleep latencies with my crackpot theory that maybe my sleep latencies would be lower at home, than in a lab. Although I am not sure what that would prove either LOL. Because my sleep latency wouldn't go from 16m in a lab, to 8 at home. The margin of error accounts for that.

But even if we do that, with my unscientific test, my sleep latencies with naps at home (with me looking at OSCAR data and seeing the sleep-wake breathing vs. asleep), you get sleep latencies of (and I am doing what they do in the lab and calling anything over 20, 20) of:

14 20 20 14 11 20 20 14 17 13 7 20 (minutes)

That's an average of 15.87, which was a 16 on my official MSLT. And that's not naps on the same day. So I would imagine it would be even higher spaced out as 4-5 naps in a single day.
I think your little experiment has actually been quite useful in getting you to accept the very real possibility that the pulmonologist's intuition about the narcolepsy was not based on any actual data and could very well be wrong. Whereas the sleep doc's telling you that the results of the MSLT indicate that you do not have narcolepsy is based on some data that actually has some connections to your day-to-day life.
I don't know what I think I am looking for. Maybe everyone else just feels as tired as I do, or at least similar to what I feel. I know I am tired and not sleepy. I admit, despite the fact the N/IH issue has been debunked, that I am still making myself wrong for feeling tired and that is a learned behavior from being told that I have N/IH. So I hyper-monitor my tiredness and make myself wrong for feeling that. I am trying to do CBT/Mindfuless to unwire this reaction. Before I was ever told about N/IH (which I don't have) I didn't make myself wrong for being tired.
Lots and lots of things can cause daytime fatigue and daytime exhaustion. Depression and anxiety are two big possibilities in your case since you've said that you suffer from them. Some medications can trigger fatigue. I think what you want to do is accept that the fatigue and exhaustion may be triggered by something other than a sleep problem.
I agree with your assessment! I am going to do one more meeting with a separate sleep specialist to be the tiebreaker in reading all the data. That way I can put the particular narcolepsy issued to bed. And start focusing on other causes.

Btw here is a known good night of sleep (in that I felt well the next day):
https://sleephq.com/public/da98d7d9-882 ... c513ab8abf

Vs a known bad night of a sleep (felt bad the next day):
https://sleephq.com/public/765931a6-f86 ... c55e2af034