Just can't sleep with my mask on!

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
Janknitz
Posts: 8014
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:05 pm

Re: Just can't sleep with my mask on!

Post by Janknitz » Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:00 pm

Please tell us exactly what mask you have.

You might try this:
Take a wash cloth or your fingertips and rub your face fairly vigorously (but not hard enough to irritate the skin) everywhere the mask touches before you put the mask on for the night. You can also give yourself some deep pressure massage where the mask touches--even around the nares, just press in gently but firmly with your fingers and massage. Do this a few times a day as well.

These techniques might help "attenuate" your nervous system to the feel of the mask, which reduces your body's "flight or fight" response to the mask touching your face. That may help you relax more in the mask and be able to sleep.

Let us know if it helps.
What you need to know before you meet your DME http://tinyurl.com/2arffqx
Taming the Mirage Quattro http://tinyurl.com/2ft3lh8
Swift FX Fitting Guide http://tinyurl.com/22ur9ts
Don't Pay that Upcharge! http://tinyurl.com/2ck48rm

Harryno
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:21 am

Re: Just can't sleep with my mask on!

Post by Harryno » Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:15 pm

Janknitz wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:00 pm
Please tell us exactly what mask you have.

You might try this:
Take a wash cloth or your fingertips and rub your face fairly vigorously (but not hard enough to irritate the skin) everywhere the mask touches before you put the mask on for the night. You can also give yourself some deep pressure massage where the mask touches--even around the nares, just press in gently but firmly with your fingers and massage. Do this a few times a day as well.

These techniques might help "attenuate" your nervous system to the feel of the mask, which reduces your body's "flight or fight" response to the mask touching your face. That may help you relax more in the mask and be able to sleep.

Let us know if it helps.
Nice idea! Did you just think of this or do you know people who have tried it? Funny I'm a massage therapist and I never thought of something like that. Thanks

Harryno
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:21 am

Re: Just can't sleep with my mask on!

Post by Harryno » Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:18 pm

Janknitz wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:00 pm
Please tell us exactly what mask you have.

You might try this:
Take a wash cloth or your fingertips and rub your face fairly vigorously (but not hard enough to irritate the skin) everywhere the mask touches before you put the mask on for the night. You can also give yourself some deep pressure massage where the mask touches--even around the nares, just press in gently but firmly with your fingers and massage. Do this a few times a day as well.

These techniques might help "attenuate" your nervous system to the feel of the mask, which reduces your body's "flight or fight" response to the mask touching your face. That may help you relax more in the mask and be able to sleep.

Let us know if it helps.
Oh. It's an F&P Brevida nasal pillow. I don't know if Brevida is the model name , if it isn't I'd have to ask the place where I got it

clownbell
Posts: 245
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:46 pm

Re: Just can't sleep with my mask on!

Post by clownbell » Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:45 pm

Harry - I did a deep dive on my meds (which include atorvastatin) and was amazed to learn how man are known to interfere with sleep. In my case, my primary doc said there were no better choices for my situation. At least I can tell myself I checked it out. Given enough time, I now fall asleep in 20-30 minutes most nights -- but with occasional outliers.
ResMed AirSense 10 Autoset with built in humidifier
Resmed P10 pillow mask

Janknitz
Posts: 8014
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:05 pm

Re: Just can't sleep with my mask on!

Post by Janknitz » Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:43 pm

clownbell wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:45 pm
Harry - I did a deep dive on my meds (which include atorvastatin) and was amazed to learn how man are known to interfere with sleep. In my case, my primary doc said there were no better choices for my situation. At least I can tell myself I checked it out. Given enough time, I now fall asleep in 20-30 minutes most nights -- but with occasional outliers.
If you CAN fall asleep without the mask on, I don't think it's the meds, although some meds certainly don't help. Then it's a matter of tolerating the mask.
Nice idea! Did you just think of this or do you know people who have tried it? Funny I'm a massage therapist and I never thought of something like that. Thanks

My first career was as an occupational therapist. Back in the "old days" we were the first professionals to recognize and treat sensory processing issues (in those days it was called "tactile defensiveness"--so glad that terminology is gone!). Other people didn't believe it existed and especially when kids had these issues it was attributed to behavior. :roll: Now they make clothes without tags in them because there's widespread realization about how much a little tiny sensory issue like an itchy tag in the back of a shirt can really bother so many people.

So when you have trouble specifically because of the mask, it screams sensory issue. This is way more common than you might think and I think it's one of the biggest reasons so many people "fail" CPAP. Attenuating the sensory input by brushing (what you can do with the washcloth) and deep pressure massage reduces the autonomic nervous system response.

One more thing to try while you're trying to fall asleep, try keeping one hand or the other on the mask with very gentle pressure, making sure not to occlude the vent or cause a leak. For instance, if you sleep on your side, just tuck the hand on the pillow side under the mask a little. The theory here is that you can't tickle yourself. When your brain "participates" in the sensory input, it doesn't trigger the flight or fight response (not the best explanation or terminology, but you get the idea). That, too, might help you relax and fall asleep.

Is there any part of the Brevida that you are aware of the most--i.e. the nasal pillows, the cushion around the nose, the headgear, the hose?
What you need to know before you meet your DME http://tinyurl.com/2arffqx
Taming the Mirage Quattro http://tinyurl.com/2ft3lh8
Swift FX Fitting Guide http://tinyurl.com/22ur9ts
Don't Pay that Upcharge! http://tinyurl.com/2ck48rm

Harryno
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:21 am

Re: Just can't sleep with my mask on!

Post by Harryno » Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:22 pm

Pugsy wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:38 am
The sensory overload problem is very real....and not very easy to fix.
I do think you are probably experiencing it.

You might want to read this
http://adventures-in-hosehead-land.blog ... er_19.html
if nothing else it will help you realize that you aren't alone and there is light far away at the end of the tunnel.
I missed this when you posted it. Thanks for your help. I will give that a read

joepublic23
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:15 am

Re: Just can't sleep with my mask on!

Post by joepublic23 » Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:32 pm

I can’t fall asleep either. I am seeing the pulmonologist later this month. He said we can work on desensitization techniques. I am hoping to use sleeping pills for a few weeks to force myself to sleep to see if that will help me to start being able to use it. It’s obnoxious how they seem to ignore that the machines basically make it impossible to sleep, then wonder why compliance is less than 50%, while still calling CPAPs the “Gold Standard.” If something fails MOST of the time, it is not the “Gold Standard”.

_________________
MachineMask

Janknitz
Posts: 8014
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:05 pm

Re: Just can't sleep with my mask on!

Post by Janknitz » Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:40 pm

joepublic23 wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:32 pm
I can’t fall asleep either. I am seeing the pulmonologist later this month. He said we can work on desensitization techniques. I am hoping to use sleeping pills for a few weeks to force myself to sleep to see if that will help me to start being able to use it. It’s obnoxious how they seem to ignore that the machines basically make it impossible to sleep, then wonder why compliance is less than 50%, while still calling CPAPs the “Gold Standard.” If something fails MOST of the time, it is not the “Gold Standard”.
Machines don't "basically make it impossible to sleep" as millions of us manage to sleep with them. But it's HARD to get used to them at first, no question about that. Most doctors and sleep clinics have two approaches to that: #1 they tell you "just keep using the machine", or #2 "here, take this sleeping pill". Neither is particularly helpful, although trying sleeping meds in the short term MIGHT work the way you are hoping. But if you stop taking the pills, the question is whether you're still going to be at square one or not.

There are many factors in getting to sleep with CPAP, it's complex, and most doctors and sleep clinics don't have the time to parse out the particular issues that are interfering with your sleep, although it's very promising that your pulmonologist recognizes that desensitization can help and is willing to work with you on it. You've hit the nail on the head why over 50% of people fail CPAP, but it's not the problem caused by the machine or the mask, it's the failure of a system that doesn't have a viable mechanism to support people through the difficult adjustment period.

If you need more help than the pulmonologist can offer, that's what we do here--if you really want help. Not everyone does, some people just want to whine or express their anger which is part of the grief over the diagnosis.

If you do want our help, see if you can pinpoint the issues (in your own thread). Perhaps start with a list of the most annoying things in order of priority, and then we can help you tackle them one by one.
What you need to know before you meet your DME http://tinyurl.com/2arffqx
Taming the Mirage Quattro http://tinyurl.com/2ft3lh8
Swift FX Fitting Guide http://tinyurl.com/22ur9ts
Don't Pay that Upcharge! http://tinyurl.com/2ck48rm

joepublic23
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:15 am

Re: Just can't sleep with my mask on!

Post by joepublic23 » Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:17 pm

I am astounded that anyone can sleep with a CPAP without heavy sedation. If the heavy sedation doesn’t work I am going to be returning the CPAP. (Or if heavy sedation is the only way to do it, I will also stop as I don’t want get hooked on that stuff.) I am trying to figure out if I want to try the dental device or if that will also be a waste of time.

I only bothered to do the sleep study once I learned about Inspire, as that was the only treatment that sounded like it might allow me to actually sleep without snoring, but some of what I have read here makes me think that the least bad option might be for my wife and I to sleep in separate rooms so we can both sleep. I am concerned that Inspire might leave me with ugly scars and wake me up with constant electric shocks. I don’t want to sleep alone, but I hate waking my wife up and I hate her constantly waking me up so she can fall asleep. (My AHI was only 6.4, I am 43 years old have a BMI of 24.9 and I am an excellent distance runner, so I am not really concerned about the health impact of my apnea, just the social aspect of snoring.)

_________________
MachineMask

GrumpyHere
Posts: 448
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:40 am

Re: Just can't sleep with my mask on!

Post by GrumpyHere » Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:22 am

joepublic23 wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:17 pm
so I am not really concerned about the health impact of my apnea, just the social aspect of snoring.
Please read about the complications in the following article at Mayo Clinic website.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... c-20377631

It's not simply just a snoring problem.

joepublic23
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:15 am

Re: Just can't sleep with my mask on!

Post by joepublic23 » Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:42 am

Thanks for the article, but thus far I am finding that attempts to treat it don’t work AT ALL, but are costing me time, money and sleep. I just wish there was a decent treatment available.

_________________
MachineMask

User avatar
earlvillestu
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:40 am

Re: Just can't sleep with my mask on!

Post by earlvillestu » Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:59 am

joepublic23 wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:32 pm
the machines basically make it impossible to sleep
Hmm ... I guess I'm imagining things then. I've been on CPAP for two and a half months, with the mask on for 8+ hours per night, and I'm sleeping between 7 and 8 of those hours, and an AHI under 1.0 (last night was the first time I hit 0.0, in 8:22 of usage). That's far more than I'd slept regularly for years before starting CPAP. I still wake up 4-5 times per night, but I get back to sleep in maybe 10 minutes or less each time, whereas before I would lie awake for hours. FWIW, I'm 76 years old with a BMI of 21.

I am well aware that I'm in the fortunate minority of people who adapted to CPAP with very few problems. I'm lucky in that, but perhaps my attitude had something to do with it. My attitude going into this (after waiting 5 months for a machine after being diagnosed with severe sleep apnea) was: "I am going to make this work." I had some initial problems finding a mask that worked, but I now have one that I can wear comfortably all night and that gives me a great seal.

As Pugsy said in response to you in another thread: "I full understand your frustrations but if you go about feeling something "just won't work" there's a good chance you will create a self fulfilling prophecy."
ResMed AirSense 11 Auto
Using a "Brand X" full face mask

joepublic23
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:15 am

Re: Just can't sleep with my mask on!

Post by joepublic23 » Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:09 am

Everyone is different. I have always had a hard time falling asleep, but once I do, I am usually able to stay asleep for the rest of the night. If my wife wakes me up due to snoring I can usually fall back asleep fairly quickly, but I do have difficulty when I try to sleep on my side or if I prop myself up with 2 pillows. (Normally the only way for me to fall asleep is on my back with 1 pillow.)

In terms of my apnea, I have always snored a lot, sometimes on the weekends, since I am able to sleep in, I wake up with a light headache and occasional brain fog. On Sunday nights I have the easiest time falling asleep (normally) but I frequently do feel tired during the day on Mondays, but I also attribute that to it being well, Monday.

_________________
MachineMask

User avatar
earlvillestu
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2022 9:40 am

Re: Just can't sleep with my mask on!

Post by earlvillestu » Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:04 am

joepublic23 wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:09 am
Everyone is different.
That was kind of my point. That and a PMA and perseverance.
ResMed AirSense 11 Auto
Using a "Brand X" full face mask

joepublic23
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:15 am

Re: Just can't sleep with my mask on!

Post by joepublic23 » Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:49 am

What does PMA stand for?

I am trying to figure out when perseverance becomes wasteful.

Before I got the sleep study done I was 99% sure that I had sleep apnea due to my lifelong snoring AND that I could not sleep with a CPAP machine (and in all likelihood a dental device).

Since having missed the equivalent of a day of work to go to two doctors appointments, 2 trips to the sleep lab (the second was to return the equipment) and 2 trips to the DME I have confirmed that I have sleep apnea AND that I cannot sleep with something strapped to my face. This feels very wasteful and pointless. The machine is reducing the amount of sleep that I get since I will wear it for 20-30 minutes when I try to go to sleep but then I have to take the mask off so my body can adequately relax enough to fall asleep.

I know that I have a much harder time falling asleep than most people, but reading about all the challenges of correctly using a CPAP even if you CAN actually fall asleep makes me wonder if this effort is pointless.

_________________
MachineMask