Intelligent Sleep Aid Machine?

Grumpy48 · Post by **Grumpy48** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:19 pm

If it doesn't say 'CPAP' anywhere in the description (with the exception in the specification "Work Mode: CPAP, Auto.....), does that suggest no prescription needed? Nowhere did I find 'prescription needed' in the ad. Nothing I'd ever consider, but interesting.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0B2N ... REF7&psc=1

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jcrocketman · Post by **jcrocketman** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:46 pm

Likely because Amazon restricts sale of medical items regulated by the FDA (CPAP). A seller must be registered in their Professional Health Care Program (PHC) to sell Rx medical devices which would obviously require a script. The way around that is not call the device a CPAP. I noticed a few different models/makes from China trying to pass this off as a "sleep aid" device.

Pugsy · Post by **Pugsy** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:07 pm

The machine you linked to is one of those fancy machines with back up rates and several different modes....i.e...ASV sort of near as I can tell.

Country of origin Hong Kong.

Very cheap Chinese knock off.

I wouldn't be surprised to see that once Amazon figures out what they are selling here is a RX required item and an extremely special use machine that the ad will just up and disappear.
Amazon has done that in the past when suppliers try to sell cpap machines since there's really no way to verify the RX thing at Amazon. There was a medical supplier a few years back selling ResMed machines for cheap and then all of the sudden no more cpap machines were available from them.

palerider · Post by **palerider** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:40 pm

Pugsy wrote: ↑
Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:07 pm
Very cheap Chinese knock off.

It all comes down to the algorithms.
We could certainly use some competition in the market.

It's always irritated me somewhat that the "S9 Escape and the S9 VPAP Adapt had the *exact same* hardware, with a few grand price difference.

I understand that it cost money to pay engineers to develop algorithms, but at some point, those development costs are paid.

(now, admittedly the ST-A and COPD models had an extra alarm module, but that thing couldn't have cost that much (I've got one).

Respirator99 · Post by **Respirator99** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:33 pm

palerider wrote: ↑
Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:40 pm
It all comes down to the algorithms....

...It's always irritated me somewhat that the "S9 Escape and the S9 VPAP Adapt had the *exact same* hardware, with a few grand price difference.

I understand that it cost money to pay engineers to develop algorithms, but at some point, those development costs are paid....

I think it's more than just the development of the algorithms. There is a huge cost involved in the preliminary medical research, development and testing. Then there are ongoing medical trials (such as the SERVE-HF) which run for years and involve thousands of patients. Then there is always the chance that something nasty will show up (as it did with SERVE-HF) and the management of such events into the future. All these things need to be accounted for in the incremental cost of the higher grade machines, and it's not just a once-off cost to develop the firmware.

Resmed (and presumably Philips) carry all these costs, but I suspect "intelligent sleeping aid" companies don't worry about such niceties.

chunkyfrog · Post by **chunkyfrog** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:15 pm

The need of many has little effect on the greed of a few.

palerider · Post by **palerider** » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:35 pm

Respirator99 wrote: ↑
Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:33 pm

palerider wrote: ↑
Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:40 pm
It all comes down to the algorithms....

...It's always irritated me somewhat that the "S9 Escape and the S9 VPAP Adapt had the *exact same* hardware, with a few grand price difference.

I understand that it cost money to pay engineers to develop algorithms, but at some point, those development costs are paid....
I think it's more than just the development of the algorithms. There is a huge cost involved in the preliminary medical research, development and testing. Then there are ongoing medical trials (such as the SERVE-HF) which run for years and involve thousands of patients. Then there is always the chance that something nasty will show up (as it did with SERVE-HF) and the management of such events into the future. All these things need to be accounted for in the incremental cost of the higher grade machines, and it's not just a once-off cost to develop the firmware.

Resmed (and presumably Philips) carry all these costs, but I suspect "intelligent sleeping aid" companies don't worry about such niceties.

SERVE-HF was a farce.

https://journal.chestnet.org/article/S0 ... 5/fulltext
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6277244/

Eventually, in other industries, as things become more established, developmental costs are paid off, and product prices lower, but not in the CPAP world.

Respirator99 · Post by **Respirator99** » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:50 pm

SERVE-HF may have been a farce, but it was a major trial involving thousands of patients over a period of years. Its findings resulted in a huge amount of additional work for Resmed and probably the loss of many sales into the future. Somebody has to pay for all this. That's my point. Developing these complex algorithms isn't just a one-off cost for a few programmers - there are ongoing costs throughout the market life of the machine, many of which are not readily predictable.

palerider · Post by **palerider** » Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:00 pm

Respirator99 wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:50 pm
SERVE-HF may have been a farce, but it was a major trial involving thousands of patients over a period of years. Its findings resulted in a huge amount of additional work for Resmed and probably the loss of many sales into the future. Somebody has to pay for all this. That's my point. Developing these complex algorithms isn't just a one-off cost for a few programmers - there are ongoing costs throughout the market life of the machine, many of which are not readily predictable.

If it hadn't been a farce, conducted with obsolete equipment, to absurd 'standards' to the point that the results were meaningless, then I might agree.

As to 'lost revenue', they just sold ST machines at a similarly absurd markup, for something that has almost no 'smarts' whatsoever.

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