Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset vs Aircurve 10 VAuto

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TheSeaOtter
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Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset vs Aircurve 10 VAuto

Post by TheSeaOtter » Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:35 am

Hello
I have wanted to find out if Aircurve 10 VAuto have all the features of the Airsense 10 Autoset.
I know VAuto is a BiPAP device, but it also has a CPAP option, right? Is it just a rudimentary CPAP or an APAP like the Airsense?

I have an option to return my Airsense in the coming week, so if Aircurve includes all the Airsense features in it, I'll go for it. I've tried finding comparisons on YouTube but didn't find any, which is why I'm posting this here.
If any differences, it'd be great if anyone can list them out for me. Thanks:)

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Re: Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset vs Aircurve 10 VAuto

Post by Pugsy » Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:55 am

CPAP mode on the AirCurve 10 VAuto isn't any sort of special cpap mode. It's just a fixed single pressure mode with the same parameters as any other ResMed fixed single cpap mode on any machine that has cpap mode available.

The main difference with the AirCurve 10 VAuto is the availability of a great than 3 pressure support.
The AutoSet has EPR exhale relief which for all practical purposes creates a pressure support situation which is maxed at 3 cm. Pressure support is simply the difference between inhale and exhale pressures.
The Vauto can exceed 3 cm Pressure Support.....if needed or wanted.
The other main difference which might be important is the maximum IPAP pressure.
The AutoSet can only go to 20 cm....the VAuto can go to 25. Chances of someone actually needing greater than 20 cm pressure isn't great but there are people who do need more than 20 cm.

Another difference that might be important comfort wise for some people is if someone needs pressures in the teens that greater than 3 cm pressure support/exhale relief can be a game changer for some people.

The AutoSet...when EPR is engaged....becomes a bilevel machine. It's just has limited pressure support.
It is why we often refer to the AutoSet as a poor man's bilevel machine. Often that 3 cm difference between inhale and exhale is a game changer for some people.

I use the AirCurve 10 VAuto. I use it in auto bilevel mode. I don't actually technically need it because of pressure needs but I use it because I happen to like PS of 4 a little more than PS of 3. It seems to match my own respiration pattern more closely and that equals more comfortable to me and when I am more comfortable I seem to sleep better.
Now I can use the AutoSet with EPR at 3 if I had to and do well with it. I just seem to do a little bit better with PS of 4.

There are a couple of other comfort features available on the VAuto that can be customized for comfort that aren't available on the AutoSet. Ti min and max....but for most people not a real big issue as most people do well with the factory defaults but they are available if for some reason a little response timing is needed.

Since we can "dumb down" the VAuto to function like the AutoSet if we want to but we can't make the AutoSet do what the VAuto can do....The VAuto is considered an upgrade and a "superior" model. Reflected in the price as well.
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Re: Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset vs Aircurve 10 VAuto

Post by TheSeaOtter » Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:07 am

Thanks a lot for such a detailed answer man!

I'm curious about one more thing, do you get an improved AHI when you use the Aircurve when compared to the Airsense. I'd really appreciate if you have it with you and can share the comparison for various pressure support, or whatever's possible.

Also, my Airsense EPR setting was off and last night I had the least ever AHI of 0.29(auto pressure setting Min=4 and Max=20) and the AHI is always ~1, still was reasonably comfortable even though I was needing higher pressure support. It peaked at 19 and was 13-14 on an average. I'm going to try it with EPR 3 and see if that feels comfortable and the AHI stays under 1. I'll post the data after trying this night.

The only reasons I hadn't tried EPR earlier was because I was able to manage and that I came across a video on YouTube where he said EPR can cause Central Apneas. That youtube video was also another reason why I didn't go for the Aircurve straight away.

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Re: Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset vs Aircurve 10 VAuto

Post by Dog Slobber » Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:20 am

I agree with everything Pugsy said.

I originally had an AirSense 10 AutoSet for Her and moved to a VAuto. I moved because I found a sweet deal on a used one.

The only feature I took advantage of was PS of 4 instead of the AirSense's EPR of 3.

Having said that, there are a few features that the AirSense line has that the AirCurve doesn't have.

AirSense only features:
  • Soft Response
  • RERA Detection
  • AutoRamp
  • For Her mode (AirSense 11 and AirSense 10 AutoSet for Her)
None of which are game changers, I love my AirCurve a lot more than AutRamp, RERA and Soft Response

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Re: Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset vs Aircurve 10 VAuto

Post by Pugsy » Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:44 am

TheSeaOtter wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:07 am
I'm curious about one more thing, do you get an improved AHI when you use the Aircurve when compared to the Airsense. I'd really appreciate if you have it with you and can share the comparison for various pressure support, or whatever's possible.
No...there was never any real change in AHI between the 2 models.
I don't target AHI so much anyway. I target overall sleep quality first because my sleep has always been fragile and not from issues related to the airway. I have other medical issues that mess with my sleep.

I am sorry but it's been quite some time since I used the AutoSet and I no longer have that model as a back up either.
I don't have those old, old reports on this computer to compare them.
TheSeaOtter wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:07 am
Also, my Airsense EPR setting was off and last night I had the least ever AHI of 0.29(auto pressure setting Min=4 and Max=20) and the AHI is always ~1, still was reasonably comfortable even though I was needing higher pressure support. It peaked at 19 and was 13-14 on an average. I'm going to try it with EPR 3 and see if that feels comfortable and the AHI stays under 1. I'll post the data after trying this night.
When you use any form of exhale relief that means the pressure drops upon exhale. It may or may not drop to a point where the airway is no longer held open optimally and apnea events of some sort can happen. When it does happen then the person has a choice...do without exhale relief or use exhale relief and maybe increase the minimum pressure a little bit to compensate for the drop.
There are always options available and as the old saying goes...more than one way to skin a cat.
TheSeaOtter wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:07 am
The only reasons I hadn't tried EPR earlier was because I was able to manage and that I came across a video on YouTube where he said EPR can cause Central Apneas. That youtube video was also another reason why I didn't go for the Aircurve straight away.
While using any form of bilevel pressures can sometimes be a trigger for central apneas it isn't nearly as common as that video makes it out to be and IMHO that causes more people to maybe have problems exhaling and adjusting to cpap than is needed. I think it does more harm than good.
The number of people who find that bilevel pressures or any sort of exhale relief will cause centrals is actually very, very small percentage of people who start cpap. I don't know the exact numbers though.
Overall about 10 to 15% of the people who start cpap will have treatment emergent central apnea pop up for various reasons...reasons aren't limited to bilevel/exhale pressure relief.
Of that 10 to 15% who might develop centrals in the numbers that are worrysome...maybe 1% of that 10/15 % might be bilevel pressure related central apnea cause. It's not very common.

If it does happen though...there are ways to deal with it. I have a friend who gets about 15 central apneas (per hour average) at the PS of 4. Now her starting minimum pressure is 16...so she really needs some exhale relief but luckily when she uses PS of 3 her central numbers are reduced to a less than 1.0 hourly average.

Besides...an occasional central is normal and to be expected anyway. All this panic over central apneas is unwarranted anyway. Centrals can be dealt with easily if they are present in numbers large enough to be a problem.

Another besides....do you know what they normally do for people who develop treatment emergent central apneas just from any cpap pressure???? Usually the very first thing they try is a simple bilevel machine like the VAuto. Going to regular bilevel has always been the first step in trying to fix treatment emergent central apnea....because sometimes it works.
If it was so common that bilevel itself was the cause of central apneas...do you think that putting someone on a bilevel machine would be the first attempt to resolve the issues.????? It's really not all that common.
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Re: Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset vs Aircurve 10 VAuto

Post by palerider » Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:07 pm

TheSeaOtter wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:35 am
Hello
I have wanted to find out if Aircurve 10 VAuto have all the features of the Airsense 10 Autoset.
I know VAuto is a BiPAP device
No, it's a "bilevel" device, BiPAP™ is a trademark of philips respironics, and only they make BiPAP™ devices.
TheSeaOtter wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:35 am
, but it also has a CPAP option, right? Is it just a rudimentary CPAP or an APAP like the Airsense?
CPAP mode is plain, not auto.

An Aircurve 10 VAuto can be set to, or programmed to act like 4 different machines, a CPAP, APAP, bilevel S and bilevel auto machine.

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Re: Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset vs Aircurve 10 VAuto

Post by palerider » Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:12 pm

TheSeaOtter wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:07 am
Thanks a lot for such a detailed answer man!
Pugsy isn't a man, I've seen her photo.
TheSeaOtter wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:07 am
I'm curious about one more thing, do you get an improved AHI when you use the Aircurve when compared to the Airsense.
Not necessarily, if they were inherently better foreveryone then they would probably be prescribed for everyone, but they're not, they're no better for many people than the airsense 10 autoset is.
TheSeaOtter wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:07 am
Also, my Airsense EPR setting was off and last night I had the least ever AHI of 0.29(auto pressure setting Min=4 and Max=20) and the AHI is always ~1, still was reasonably comfortable even though I was needing higher pressure support. It peaked at 19 and was 13-14 on an average. I'm going to try it with EPR 3 and see if that feels comfortable and the AHI stays under 1. I'll post the data after trying this night.
If the EPR was off, then a VAuto is no different than an Autoset, except it can go to 25cmh2o where the autoset can only go to 20.
TheSeaOtter wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:07 am
The only reasons I hadn't tried EPR earlier was because I was able to manage and that I came across a video on YouTube where he said EPR can cause Central Apneas. That youtube video was also another reason why I didn't go for the Aircurve straight away.
yeah, that person has a blind spot about EPR, he's pretty smart in many ways, but he's dumb as a box of rocks about that.

It *IS* possible, for a small percentage of people. But that's like saying "well, driving your CAR could result in your death, people die every day while driving their cars, but should you never get in your car because it could happen?

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Re: Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset vs Aircurve 10 VAuto

Post by TheSeaOtter » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:10 am

TheSeaOtter wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:07 am
I'm curious about one more thing, do you get an improved AHI when you use the Aircurve when compared to the Airsense. I'd really appreciate if you have it with you and can share the comparison for various pressure support, or whatever's possible.
Pugsy wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:44 am
No...there was never any real change in AHI between the 2 models.
I don't target AHI so much anyway. I target overall sleep quality first because my sleep has always been fragile and not from issues related to the airway. I have other medical issues that mess with my sleep.

I am sorry but it's been quite some time since I used the AutoSet and I no longer have that model as a back up either.
I don't have those old, old reports on this computer to compare them.
Oh no problem. Thanks anyway. And I'm so sorry to assume you were a man.
TheSeaOtter wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:07 am
Also, my Airsense EPR setting was off and last night I had the least ever AHI of 0.29(auto pressure setting Min=4 and Max=20) and the AHI is always ~1, still was reasonably comfortable even though I was needing higher pressure support. It peaked at 19 and was 13-14 on an average. I'm going to try it with EPR 3 and see if that feels comfortable and the AHI stays under 1. I'll post the data after trying this night.
Pugsy wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:44 am
When you use any form of exhale relief that means the pressure drops upon exhale. It may or may not drop to a point where the airway is no longer held open optimally and apnea events of some sort can happen. When it does happen then the person has a choice...do without exhale relief or use exhale relief and maybe increase the minimum pressure a little bit to compensate for the drop.
There are always options available and as the old saying goes...more than one way to skin a cat.
I treid EPR last night, it was weird so I disabled it and just decreased the max pressure to 16. I got an AHI of 0.94.
TheSeaOtter wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:07 am
The only reasons I hadn't tried EPR earlier was because I was able to manage and that I came across a video on YouTube where he said EPR can cause Central Apneas. That youtube video was also another reason why I didn't go for the Aircurve straight away.
Pugsy wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:44 am
While using any form of bilevel pressures can sometimes be a trigger for central apneas it isn't nearly as common as that video makes it out to be and IMHO that causes more people to maybe have problems exhaling and adjusting to cpap than is needed. I think it does more harm than good.
The number of people who find that bilevel pressures or any sort of exhale relief will cause centrals is actually very, very small percentage of people who start cpap. I don't know the exact numbers though.
Overall about 10 to 15% of the people who start cpap will have treatment emergent central apnea pop up for various reasons...reasons aren't limited to bilevel/exhale pressure relief.
Of that 10 to 15% who might develop centrals in the numbers that are worrysome...maybe 1% of that 10/15 % might be bilevel pressure related central apnea cause. It's not very common.

If it does happen though...there are ways to deal with it. I have a friend who gets about 15 central apneas (per hour average) at the PS of 4. Now her starting minimum pressure is 16...so she really needs some exhale relief but luckily when she uses PS of 3 her central numbers are reduced to a less than 1.0 hourly average.

Besides...an occasional central is normal and to be expected anyway. All this panic over central apneas is unwarranted anyway. Centrals can be dealt with easily if they are present in numbers large enough to be a problem.

Another besides....do you know what they normally do for people who develop treatment emergent central apneas just from any cpap pressure???? Usually the very first thing they try is a simple bilevel machine like the VAuto. Going to regular bilevel has always been the first step in trying to fix treatment emergent central apnea....because sometimes it works.
If it was so common that bilevel itself was the cause of central apneas...do you think that putting someone on a bilevel machine would be the first attempt to resolve the issues.????? It's really not all that common.
So are you suggesting I straight away get the Aircurve? Can you please take a look at the OSCAR data and suggest if it's okay to keep my Airsense?

https://imgur.com/p3c0kjs
^19/06/2022

https://imgur.com/JSfDiDZ
^20/06/2022

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Re: Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset vs Aircurve 10 VAuto

Post by TheSeaOtter » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:25 am

palerider wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:07 pm
TheSeaOtter wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:35 am
Hello
I have wanted to find out if Aircurve 10 VAuto have all the features of the Airsense 10 Autoset.
I know VAuto is a BiPAP device
No, it's a "bilevel" device, BiPAP™ is a trademark of philips respironics, and only they make BiPAP™ devices.
TheSeaOtter wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:35 am
, but it also has a CPAP option, right? Is it just a rudimentary CPAP or an APAP like the Airsense?
CPAP mode is plain, not auto.

An Aircurve 10 VAuto can be set to, or programmed to act like 4 different machines, a CPAP, APAP, bilevel S and bilevel auto machine.
Thanks for your input :)
But the Aircurve 10 VAuto cannot be run with EPR disabled, can it? That's how I'm using my Airsense currently, Pressure from 4-20; EPR disabled.

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Re: Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset vs Aircurve 10 VAuto

Post by Pugsy » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:33 am

TheSeaOtter wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:10 am
So are you suggesting I straight away get the Aircurve? Can you please take a look at the OSCAR data and suggest if it's okay to keep my Airsense?
I don't see an urgent need to go with the bilevel at this time.

You don't seem to need pressures over 20 cm...it does climb to where it might kiss that upper 20 cm limit but not for very long and you don't see the pressure maxing out and having a lot of apnea events happen because the machine needed to go higher but couldn't.
You don't seem to need or want the exhale relief that is greater than what you can get on the AutoSet which are the 2 main differences between the 2 models....maximum pressures available along with more exhale relief in the form of PS.

I do think that you should consider increasing your minimum setting on the AutoSet to around 8 cm if you can.
The machine is going up and staying up anyway to the 8 - 10 range anyway.
Your flow limitation graph is a bit "active" and it may or may not end up being a factor in how you sleep or not.
To better deal with flow limitations we either increase the minimum or add PS in the form of exhale relief...or sometimes both but if you are sleeping good and feeling good there probably isn't any reason to worry about the FLs.
But the Aircurve 10 VAuto cannot be run with EPR disabled, can it? That's how I'm using my Airsense currently, Pressure from 4-20; EPR disabled.
Sure it can. PS can be set to 0 which effectively turns off the exhale relief that PS offers.
PS accomplishes what EPR does....create a difference between inhale and exhale. PS can be turned off simply by setting it to 0.

Now if you don't like or need that sort of exhale relief...that's one thing but don't go thinking that you can't turn it off because you sure can. Some people like that relief...some don't and that is fine.
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Re: Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset vs Aircurve 10 VAuto

Post by TheSeaOtter » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:36 am

palerider wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:12 pm
Pugsy isn't a man, I've seen her photo.
My bad. Apologized :)
palerider wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:12 pm
Not necessarily, if they were inherently better foreveryone then they would probably be prescribed for everyone, but they're not, they're no better for many people than the airsense 10 autoset is.

If the EPR was off, then a VAuto is no different than an Autoset, except it can go to 25cmh2o where the autoset can only go to 20.
yeah, that person has a blind spot about EPR, he's pretty smart in many ways, but he's dumb as a box of rocks about that.

It *IS* possible, for a small percentage of people. But that's like saying "well, driving your CAR could result in your death, people die every day while driving their cars, but should you never get in your car because it could happen?
Haha! So you know the video I'm talking about.
Thanks for your input :)

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Re: Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset vs Aircurve 10 VAuto

Post by Miss Emerita » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:58 am

Bottom line, as PR, DS, and Pugsy have explained, is that if you don't need pressures over 20 and don't want EPR/pressure support over 3, there's no particular reason to get a VAuto.

One additional thought after reading the thread: you might try EPR of 1 to see whether it feels as "wrong" to you as 3. If it's OK, you might try 2, then eventually 3 again. Those flow limitations may not be a problem for your sleep, but then again maybe they are.
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Re: Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset vs Aircurve 10 VAuto

Post by TheSeaOtter » Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:05 pm

Pugsy wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:33 am
I don't see an urgent need to go with the bilevel at this time.

You don't seem to need pressures over 20 cm...it does climb to where it might kiss that upper 20 cm limit but not for very long and you don't see the pressure maxing out and having a lot of apnea events happen because the machine needed to go higher but couldn't.
You don't seem to need or want the exhale relief that is greater than what you can get on the AutoSet which are the 2 main differences between the 2 models....maximum pressures available along with more exhale relief in the form of PS.
Do you think I'll be needing the bilevel in the future, like in less than a year or two (because the pressure is sometimes going pretty close to 20 already)? I mean, do people in general keep needing increasing max pressure support after starting the CPAP therapy?
I basically have an option to return the Airsense and get an Aircurve by paying less than a $100 extra. If Aircurve can do everything my Airsense is currently doing, it's better to get the Aircurve, isn't it? If there's very less chance of me needing the extra +20 pressures in the coming years, then I'll stick to the Airsense.
Pugsy wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:33 am
I do think that you should consider increasing your minimum setting on the AutoSet to around 8 cm if you can.
The machine is going up and staying up anyway to the 8 - 10 range anyway.
Your flow limitation graph is a bit "active" and it may or may not end up being a factor in how you sleep or not.
To better deal with flow limitations we either increase the minimum or add PS in the form of exhale relief...or sometimes both but if you are sleeping good and feeling good there probably isn't any reason to worry about the FLs.
Noted.
I'll increase the minimum pressure and use the EPR this night and post the data.
But the Aircurve 10 VAuto cannot be run with EPR disabled, can it? That's how I'm using my Airsense currently, Pressure from 4-20; EPR disabled.
Pugsy wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:33 am
Sure it can. PS can be set to 0 which effectively turns off the exhale relief that PS offers.
PS accomplishes what EPR does....create a difference between inhale and exhale. PS can be turned off simply by setting it to 0.

Now if you don't like or need that sort of exhale relief...that's one thing but don't go thinking that you can't turn it off because you sure can. Some people like that relief...some don't and that is fine.
I didn't know that we can operate the VAuto with PS = 0/1/2/3. That was a major concern.
Thanks you :) Really appreciate your input

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Re: Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset vs Aircurve 10 VAuto

Post by TheSeaOtter » Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:10 pm

Miss Emerita wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:58 am
Bottom line, as PR, DS, and Pugsy have explained, is that if you don't need pressures over 20 and don't want EPR/pressure support over 3, there's no particular reason to get a VAuto.

One additional thought after reading the thread: you might try EPR of 1 to see whether it feels as "wrong" to you as 3. If it's OK, you might try 2, then eventually 3 again. Those flow limitations may not be a problem for your sleep, but then again maybe they are.
Noted. I will do the same and let you know how it goes.
Thanks :)

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Re: Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset vs Aircurve 10 VAuto

Post by TheSeaOtter » Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:20 pm

Dog Slobber wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:20 am
I agree with everything Pugsy said.

I originally had an AirSense 10 AutoSet for Her and moved to a VAuto. I moved because I found a sweet deal on a used one.

The only feature I took advantage of was PS of 4 instead of the AirSense's EPR of 3.

Having said that, there are a few features that the AirSense line has that the AirCurve doesn't have.

AirSense only features:
  • Soft Response
  • RERA Detection
  • AutoRamp
  • For Her mode (AirSense 11 and AirSense 10 AutoSet for Her)
None of which are game changers, I love my AirCurve a lot more than AutRamp, RERA and Soft Response
Thanks for concisely pointing those out
I only use the Auto Ramp feature, which I think I'll be fine without.
My Airsense isn't showing RERA data on OSCAR. Does it even matter? My previuos Philips System One ReMaster showed a lot more info than the Airsense for some reason.
Am I missing any way to get more data out of the Airsense?

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