Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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GearChange
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Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by GearChange » Fri May 20, 2022 6:45 pm

So I am putting this out there in case there's a live CSA person on a ASV machine, who has had a similar experience and is as curious as I am about this strange phenomenon.
I have had Central Apnea for as long as I can remember, way before CSA was a thing and as early as I can recall in grade school. I remember being woken up by summer camp staff in grade 6 because they couldn't tell whether or not I was breathing.
My breath rate is also much below the normal rate at only about 9 B/Min, (average is 12) however my minute ventilation and Tidal Volume are well within the normal range. I also sleep well (with my Adaptive Servo Ventilation, ASV), of which I have both the brand names to use at home. I prefer my Philips BiPAP Auto SV to my Resmed Aircurve 10 ASV because apart from sleeping better with my Philips on, it also has a far better monitoring algorithm than my my Resmed ASV which looks like barebones in comparison, but not in price, of course.
Anyway that should give you enough background about me and now to the question:
If you look at the graph of one my recent sessions below, you will see that between about 4 am and 4:40, there was no Patient Triggered Breaths registered. This does not happen every night but at least 2-3 nights a week, when the ASV registers no breaths whatsoever for long periods of time. (I think the longest I have seen it at was about 45 minutes).
Of course throughout these events, my ASV simply provides breaths, end result being that I do not wake up gasping for air while my ASV is essentially providing "ventilation".
Here is the full session chart:
full session 1.png
If I zoom in the chart during these periods, it reveals a perfectly ordered ventilation routine at my mask pressure (23 cmH2O), with a perfectly functioning "flow",(at my own naturally low breath rate) meaning that while my brain has decided to completely stop breathing, my airways are fully open and my lungs respond to ventilation as they should (Lungs expand with intake of pressurised air (Inhale) and when pressure stops, my lungs deflate letting the air out (Exhale). So there is no adverse pathology there).
Here is the zoomed in chart covering a couple of minutes of no breathing:
full session.png
Of course using a Resmed ASV will not show that because as I mentioned above, Resmed algo is very poor and does not record critical info such as "Patient Triggered Breaths" or "Backup Rates" etc etc, something that we can get into in another post.
So my question is if there is anyone here who may be having the same experience or anyone who knows someone with this kind of experience.. If so I'd be grateful for their comments.
It is just a little odd that a Central Apnea Patient can go without taking a single breath for upwards of 45 minutes at a time, while it also explains why people with CSA never get a good night sleep unless they are on a smart ventilator like an ASV machine.
Bare in mind that it only takes 10 second on average after you stop breathing, before your body wakes you up for breath, if you are not on a ASV machine, so I am eternally grateful for people who came up with the ASV idea for home use and I seriously believe that all PAP machines will be of ASV design , sooner than later..
Even though I have had extensive experience with the use and functionality of several types of different PAP machines,no information in my posts should be put in practice unless cleared by your own medical practitioner first.

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Julie
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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by Julie » Fri May 20, 2022 7:11 pm

Couldn't begin to address the tech stuff there (others can) but just curious if you e.g. are back sleeping, encouraging so many hypops as a result, and have you tried not †o do it?

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GearChange
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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by GearChange » Fri May 20, 2022 7:18 pm

Been a side-sleeper all my life. In fact sleeping on my back kind of freaks me out.
BTW, the graph isn't really that complicated. All it does is it records the characteristics of every single breath you take while you have the machine on. All CPAPS in the market record some information for each sleeping session and all you have to de is to read the results on your laptop using a free software for CPAP data, called OSCAR.
Last edited by GearChange on Fri May 20, 2022 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Even though I have had extensive experience with the use and functionality of several types of different PAP machines,no information in my posts should be put in practice unless cleared by your own medical practitioner first.

GrumpyHere
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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by GrumpyHere » Fri May 20, 2022 7:29 pm

GearChange wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 6:45 pm
I prefer my Philips BiPAP Auto SV to my Resmed Aircurve 10 ASV because apart from sleeping better with my Philips on, it also has a far better monitoring algorithm than my my Resmed ASV which looks like barebones in comparison
Just because ResMed ASV does not directly providing the info you view as critical, it does not mean it isn't monitoring that info.
GearChange wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 6:45 pm
record critical info such as "Patient Triggered Breaths" or "Backup Rates"
ASV will intervene if the patient has centrals so IMO PTB info is extraneous.

Similarly IMO Minute Ventilation info is a better physiological measure than plain Backup Rate.
Last edited by GrumpyHere on Fri May 20, 2022 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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GearChange
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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by GearChange » Fri May 20, 2022 7:36 pm

.
Last edited by GearChange on Fri May 20, 2022 7:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Even though I have had extensive experience with the use and functionality of several types of different PAP machines,no information in my posts should be put in practice unless cleared by your own medical practitioner first.

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GearChange
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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by GearChange » Fri May 20, 2022 7:40 pm

GrumpyHere wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 7:29 pm
ASV will intervene if the patient has centrals so IMHO PTB info is extraneous.

That's what Resmed says and we just have to believe them because their algo certainly does not record or display that "critical" info, like Respironics algo does, but like I said, maybe I will post something about a comparison at a later date.
This post is specifically about the "length of time" that a person with CSA can go without involuntary breathing and what that average is, because like I mentioned I have recorded up to 45 minutes of no instantaneous breathing and I am wondering what other CSA people experience.
Even though I have had extensive experience with the use and functionality of several types of different PAP machines,no information in my posts should be put in practice unless cleared by your own medical practitioner first.

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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by GrumpyHere » Fri May 20, 2022 7:49 pm

It takes more effort but if you really want the PTB info ...

All the stretches where there are no extended period of high PS, the patient is triggering their own breaths.
GearChange wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 7:40 pm
That's what Resmed says and we just have to believe them because their algo certainly does not record or display that "critical" info,
You're conflating data recording with data presentation.

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GearChange
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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by GearChange » Fri May 20, 2022 7:57 pm

GrumpyHere wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 7:49 pm
It takes more effort but if you really want the PTB info ...

All the stretches where there are no extended period of high PS, the patient is breathing on their own.
Sure, I get that, but still, like I mentioned already the algo is simply too lazy on a Resmed, but maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it other than the fact that people who haven't experienced both machines, do not know the difference. For example if a person who is ONLY experienced a Resmed ASV reads my post and looks at my OSCAR data, they may not even know what I am talking about. So that's why I touched on the subject, otherwise it really doesn't have anything else to do with the intent of this particular post.
That said and like I already mentioned, I will definitely post a detailed comparison between the two brands of ASVs, soon.
Even though I have had extensive experience with the use and functionality of several types of different PAP machines,no information in my posts should be put in practice unless cleared by your own medical practitioner first.

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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by palerider » Fri May 20, 2022 8:45 pm

GearChange wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 7:57 pm
I mentioned already the algo is simply too lazy on a Resmed, but maybe I shouldn't have mentioned
Yes, you shouldn't have, nobody cares about your *highly* biased but nonetheless erroneous 'opinions'.
GearChange wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 7:57 pm
That said and like I already mentioned, I will definitely post a detailed comparison between the two brands of ASVs, soon.
I'm sure we really all wish you wouldn't.

You've proven that facts don't have any place in your drivel.

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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by GrumpyHere » Fri May 20, 2022 8:58 pm

Hmmm ...

My apologies for driving the discussion off the rails with the discussion re relative importance of various type of data ...

Hopefully those with CSA can provide input to OP's question re their CSA duration.

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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by ozij » Fri May 20, 2022 9:08 pm

GearChange wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 7:40 pm
This post is specifically about the "length of time" that a person with CSA can go without involuntary breathing and what that average is, because like I mentioned I have recorded up to 45 minutes of no instantaneous breathing and I am wondering what other CSA people experience.
You have data showing that:
  • when you're asleep
  • and have an ASV to support your breathing

you can go for as long as 45 minutes without breathing spontaneously.

Some people spend their whole life on ventilatory breathing support, be they asleep or awake.
It that common? No.
Does it happen? Yes
Is Central Sleep Apnea as common as Obstructive Sleep Apnea? No way - and you can look for research about that.
Do you have CSA? It certainly looks like it.
Is your ASV triggering breaths for you when your brain does not? Ditto

Are you concerned about those long periods - in which your brain isn't triggering breaths, and the machine is doing the breathing for you? Something to discuss with your doctor.
Are you feeling well with your therapy? Great.

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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by dataq1 » Fri May 20, 2022 9:19 pm

palerider wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 8:45 pm
GearChange wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 7:57 pm
I mentioned already the algo is simply too lazy on a Resmed, but maybe I shouldn't have mentioned
Yes, you shouldn't have, nobody cares about your *highly* biased but nonetheless erroneous 'opinions'.
GearChange wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 7:57 pm
That said and like I already mentioned, I will definitely post a detailed comparison between the two brands of ASVs, soon.
I'm sure we really all wish you wouldn't.
You've proven that facts don't have any place in your drivel.
Can always count on Palerider to provoke.
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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by Respirator99 » Fri May 20, 2022 9:28 pm

There is a discussion of this phenomenon here: viewtopic/t184231/Respiratory-Rate-of-7 ... years.html
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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by Pugsy » Fri May 20, 2022 9:35 pm

dataq1 wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 9:19 pm
Can always count on Palerider to provoke.
And we can count on you to stick your nose in where it doesn't belong can't we?

Let's not have another thread/topic derailed with this sort of "he said something mean" crap again.

Please get back on topic or your posts will be removed.


To everyone...stay on topic please. No more poking at anyone or each other....or take it private.

This is my one and only warning to all.

Stick to the facts or just don't say anything at all please.

Thank you.

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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by Miss Emerita » Fri May 20, 2022 11:10 pm

From GearChange: “Bare in mind that it only takes 10 second on average after you stop breathing, before your body wakes you up for breath, if you are not on a ASV machine.”

I don’t think this is true. Breathing after a 10+ second pause does not require waking up.
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