Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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GearChange
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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by GearChange » Sat May 21, 2022 1:01 am

Respirator99 wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 9:28 pm
There is a discussion of this phenomenon here: viewtopic/t184231/Respiratory-Rate-of-7 ... years.html
Thank you. I will.
Even though I have had extensive experience with the use and functionality of several types of different PAP machines,no information in my posts should be put in practice unless cleared by your own medical practitioner first.

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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by Rubicon » Sat May 21, 2022 2:22 am

GearChange wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 6:45 pm
however my minute ventilation and Tidal Volume are well within the normal range.
In the highlighted area your tidal volume is 922.81 ml.

On what planet would that be considered to be "well within the normal range"?
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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by Rubicon » Sat May 21, 2022 2:26 am

GearChange wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 6:45 pm
...my brain has decided to completely stop breathing...
Not so.

You have told it to stop breathing with those insane tidal volumes.
Freeze this moment a little bit longer.
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Thumper1947
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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by Thumper1947 » Sat May 21, 2022 10:22 am

Can someone tell me what is the normal tidal volume range range? I don't normally follow it.
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GearChange
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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by GearChange » Sat May 21, 2022 10:39 am

Thumper1947 wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 10:22 am
Can someone tell me what is the normal tidal volume range range? I don't normally follow it.
Tidal volume is the total volume of air that is displaced in your lungs during a breath cycle (measured in Milliliters, so 1 liter = 1,000 Milliliters (ml)
For example if you breath at say a rate of 10 breaths per minute, and you displace 1000 ml (1 liter)per breath , then your "Minute Ventilation" is 10 x 1,000 = 10,000 ml or 10 liters per minute. (MV is the volume of air you displace in 1 minute).

Now, the role of ASV type machines is pretty much to keep Minute Ventilation stable so the machine algorithm measures and then adjusts the pressures and volumes of air ( on the fly ) in order to deliver a stable Minute Ventilation . This means monitoring your "Tidal Volume" with every breath.
The other poster seems to think that my Minute ventilation is too high and therefore my brains stops me from breathing, which is of course nonsense.
What he or she is looking at is a small segment of my chart that only shows the "Max" level of tidal volume "spikes" that I score over night (like taking the occasional deep breath etc).
Otherwise my average Tidal volume is about 800ml and I breath slow at only about 9-10 breaths per minute (normal BR is 12-15 ).
So my ASV is delivering the correct amount of air in order to maintain a very stable "Minute Ventilation".
Tidal Volume is monitored in order for a ASV machine algo to be able to calculate and deliver a stabilized "Minute Ventilation".

The answer to your question therefore is that there's no such a thing as a "normal" tidal volume because how much air you displace per breath very much depends on your weight and height and the size of your lungs.
It is said that the average Vt for average males is around 500 to 600 ml while it is about 400-500 for average female Vt and since most average people breath at an average rate of 12-15 breaths per minute, then the average Minute Ventilation for males at 12 breaths per minute should be (500 x 12 = 6,000ml )or 6 l/minute at a minimum and a max of (15 x 600 = 9,000ml) or 9 l/minute , so between 6 to 9 liters per minute is the average Minute Ventilation for average sized males and 4.8 l/min to 7.5 l/min for average sized females.

Remember its all about averages. My minute ventilation is about 8 l/min average which is normal for a larger guy at 6'2" and 250lb in weight.
Last edited by GearChange on Sat May 21, 2022 11:24 am, edited 4 times in total.
Even though I have had extensive experience with the use and functionality of several types of different PAP machines,no information in my posts should be put in practice unless cleared by your own medical practitioner first.

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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by Thumper1947 » Sat May 21, 2022 11:06 am

Gear,
Thanks for the explanation. It's a little above my old brain, but it was an interesting explanation.
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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by chunkyfrog » Sat May 21, 2022 11:37 am

When the patient has not breathed for 30 minutes, you can find him
in cold storage wearing a toe tag and nothing else but a sheet.
Ummm--I hope that is not really the case.

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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by GearChange » Sat May 21, 2022 12:18 pm

chunkyfrog wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 11:37 am
When the patient has not breathed for 30 minutes, you can find him
in cold storage wearing a toe tag and nothing else but a sheet.
Ummm--I hope that is not really the case.
Precisely !
Perhaps I am dead already and don't know it just yet.
I am not yet sure what's going on here, unless of course my experience is corroborated by other people in the same situation.
What I do know is that before my therapy, life was pretty miserable, waking up several times every hour, just to catch a breath.
Even though I have had extensive experience with the use and functionality of several types of different PAP machines,no information in my posts should be put in practice unless cleared by your own medical practitioner first.

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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by Rubicon » Sat May 21, 2022 2:19 pm

GearChange wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 10:39 am
The other poster seems to think that my Minute ventilation is too high and therefore my brains stops me from breathing, which is of course nonsense.
Actually, The Other Poster did not say that.

He said
Rubicon wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 2:22 am

In the highlighted area your tidal volume is 922.81 ml.
Normal spontaneous wake tidal volume is about 5 ml/kg, and less during sleep.

So you're sending in VTs approximately twice as large as they should be.

Mild to moderate COPD?

This is going to be a great example of Dial Wingin' run amok!
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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by palerider » Sat May 21, 2022 4:06 pm

Miss Emerita wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 11:10 pm
GearChange wrote: “Bare in mind that it only takes 10 second on average after you stop breathing, before your body wakes you up for breath, if you are not on a ASV machine.”
I don’t think this is true. Breathing after a 10+ second pause does not require waking up.
You're absolutely correct about that being false,

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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by palerider » Sat May 21, 2022 4:12 pm

GearChange wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 10:39 am
The other poster seems to think that my Minute ventilation is too high and therefore my brains stops me from breathing, which is of course nonsense.
This should be fun... Zonker, pass the popcorn!

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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by GearChange » Sat May 21, 2022 5:05 pm

Rubicon wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 2:26 am
GearChange wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 6:45 pm
...my brain has decided to completely stop breathing...
Not so.
You have told it to stop breathing with those insane tidal volumes.
Yes doctor you are correct.
I told my brain to stop breathing while I was asleep, because I know my tidal volume will be higher when on total machine ventilation at 26 cmH2O. Just for fun!. It's a tickle-me-down kind of thang!
That's actually a well researched area where people subconsciously stop breathing because they know their their tidal volume will elevate if they stop breathing for more than 30 minutes.
Why did I not think of that? I could have just googled it...but I posed the question (which BTW has nothing to do with my tidal volume) here because I knew Rubicon would explain it all better.
Do keep enlightening us. Don't stop!
By the way Here's my Vt when I breath on my own at over 99%. It is at less than 650.
Last edited by GearChange on Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Even though I have had extensive experience with the use and functionality of several types of different PAP machines,no information in my posts should be put in practice unless cleared by your own medical practitioner first.

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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by zonker » Sat May 21, 2022 6:40 pm

palerider wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 4:12 pm
GearChange wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 10:39 am
The other poster seems to think that my Minute ventilation is too high and therefore my brains stops me from breathing, which is of course nonsense.
This should be fun... Zonker, pass the popcorn!
Image

yup. particularly as after you posted, he took another shot at rubicon.

this gonna be fun.
people say i'm self absorbed.
but that's enough about them.
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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by jimbud » Sat May 21, 2022 7:14 pm

One who is thought to be a fool...will always open their mouth and remove all doubt. :wink:

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Re: Central Apnea-Is It Normal To Stop Breathing More Than 30 Minutes At a Time?

Post by palerider » Sat May 21, 2022 10:29 pm

jimbud wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 7:14 pm
One who is thought to be a fool...will always open their mouth and remove all doubt. :wink:

JPB
Yup, to both you and Zonker.

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