Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
NotNotLaosho
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Re: Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?

Post by NotNotLaosho » Sat May 21, 2022 3:17 pm

jimbud wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 3:49 pm
Just keep on your therapy, "First Do No More Damage".
Of course. That said, I am worried about the aftermath, my brain, my cognitive abilities have always been my greatest (and only, I must admit) asset.
Architect wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 5:56 pm
Same with sleep apnea, I stopped breathing 33 times per hour and 40 during REM. I felt like death, swore I had brain damage, after beginning therapy, over time I returned back to normal.
How long have you had cognitive symptoms due to sleep apnea?
ozij wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 7:27 pm
There are many ways for the brain to heal, just as there are for other parts of the body.
NotNotLaosho wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 1:30 pm

The only study I could read about it (and which is repeated everywhere) is this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4153061/
The only article you quote is from 2014.
Similar articles for PMID: 25142557
Filters applied: Abstract, in the last 5 years.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?filter ... d=25142557
Even if you look for more recent stuff, there's nothing like this. At best it's a partial cure, at worst it doesn't cure. Complete recovery of cognitive abilities and brain damage seems to be something controversial.
Janknitz wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 2:06 pm
I participated in the American Sleep Apnea Association conference in 2019. Karen Wolk, who was one of the panel members had severe cognitive issues as a result of her apnea. Her video interview is here: https://youtu.be/pozyDRaE-LI Her cognition was restored with proper treatment.

This is not to imply that only the device she used will work, it's just to show that getting adequate treatment of your OSA might improve your cognitive issues.
It's encouraging (like all the stories I've read here and there) but it's still an anecdote, hence my research. But it at least gives me hope. Thank you.
Chris33022 wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 2:11 pm
NotNotLaosho wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 1:30 pm
Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?
I've been wondering the same thing (I started CPAP 5 weeks ago). So I Googled it a while ago and found this article: "CPAP therapy restores brain tissue in adults with sleep apnea, study finds"
Here's the link: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 065550.htm

According to the article, it sounds like whatever degree of brain damage reversal we will get thanks to CPAP will happen in the first year, and not after that.

Here's the part describing this:

<< Results indicate that obstructive sleep apnea patients showed focal reductions of grey-matter volume at baseline in the left hippocampus, posterior parietal cortex and right superior frontal gyrus. Significant grey-matter volume increases were observed after three months of continuous positive airway pressure therapy in hippocampal and frontal structures. No further improvement in gray-matter volume was observed after one year of CPAP therapy. >>
The study is also funded by Philips, so I'm just as suspicious of it.

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Re: Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?

Post by Architect » Sat May 21, 2022 6:29 pm

I began sleep treatment years ago, if not mistaken 9-10 yrs ago, took approx 2 years to be symptom free. I was practically brain dead, shared with sleep clinic, felt as if I was 75% coma state. Thanks to cpap/bipap technology, I fully recovered.

NotNotLaosho
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Re: Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?

Post by NotNotLaosho » Sun May 22, 2022 5:17 am

Architect wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 6:29 pm
I began sleep treatment years ago, if not mistaken 9-10 yrs ago, took approx 2 years to be symptom free. I was practically brain dead, shared with sleep clinic, felt as if I was 75% coma state. Thanks to cpap/bipap technology, I fully recovered.
There was a mistranslation on my part I think. I meant, before you started the treatment, you had sleep apnea for how long do you think?

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ozij
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Re: Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?

Post by ozij » Sun May 22, 2022 5:19 am

NotNotLaosho wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 1:30 pm

Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?
[...]

But knowing that this study was supported by [...] I have a doubt about its reliability I prefer to be wary. I am really scared that my cognitive abilities will not return to normal, even after treatment.
I'm afraid I won't understand what I used to understand easily.
It's encouraging (like all the stories I've read here and there) but it's still an anecdote, hence my research. But it at least gives me hope. Thank you
The study is also funded by [...], so I'm just as suspicious of it.
Even if you look for more recent stuff, there's nothing like this. At best it's a partial cure, at worst it doesn't cure. Complete recovery of cognitive abilities and brain damage seems to be something controversial.
{all added emphasis is mine}

I doubt there is anything in research that will make you less wary, less suspiciuos, less scared of the loss of your cognitive assets.
You are clearly terrified, and trying to find answers in a way that must have worked very well for you in the past.

However, from an academic perspective,you have no reason to trust anything anyone on this forum says to you. There is such a a thing as cognitive dissonance, you know, and you can always say that the people reporting success are simply convincing themselves something is good simply because they've invested in it. Those who haven't succeeded with their therapy have probably dropped off from this forum long ago - the anecdotes on this forum are far from being a representative sample of anything.
Bottom line: there is no end to the ways information can be distrusted or denied.

What you can get from this forum is ideas for you try out in your one and only, singular, statistically non-exitant case of one. Your case of one should be your major research project now. Don't confuse descriptive statistics, and research on populations, with the research you need to go through to improve your very own case of one therapy. It's up to you to decide whether you want to invest time and thought in focusing on your own therapy to get the best you can out of it.

A discussion of the controversies or lack or reliability of the research - or of members responses for that matter - will not get you far in improving your therapy in a way that will give you the best chance of healing.

None of us knows whether you have brain damage due to your sleep apnea. None of us knows whether any damage you may have is reversible. None of us can promise you you will improve.
Those of us here can only tell you they've found their personal struggle to improve their own therapy worth it - and many of us want to help others the way we ourselves have been helped here.
It's a case of "this is what for worked for me in my specific conditions, maybe it could work for you should you want to try it".

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ChicagoGranny
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Re: Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?

Post by ChicagoGranny » Sun May 22, 2022 5:45 am

NotNotLaosho wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 5:17 am
I meant, before you started the treatment, you had sleep apnea for how long do you think?
You are full of doubt. Doubt will do you no good. Quit researching. Free yourself of doubt. Fill yourself with hope. Hope.

Listen to ozij. Work on establishing a good CPAP therapy. Develop good sleep hygiene. Eat a good diet. Get regular moderate exercise. Get outside. Be optimistic. Develop friendships.

Be thankful for something every day. Be hopeful.

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Re: Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?

Post by NotNotLaosho » Sun May 22, 2022 9:43 am

ChicagoGranny wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 5:45 am
NotNotLaosho wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 5:17 am
I meant, before you started the treatment, you had sleep apnea for how long do you think?
You are full of doubt. Doubt will do you no good. Quit researching. Free yourself of doubt. Fill yourself with hope. Hope.

Listen to ozij. Work on establishing a good CPAP therapy. Develop good sleep hygiene. Eat a good diet. Get regular moderate exercise. Get outside. Be optimistic. Develop friendships.

Be thankful for something every day. Be hopeful.
Hello madam.
If I stop looking, I put the problem aside (and knowing me, it wouldn't make much difference to my anxiety, I'd just be full of "what ifs" which is the same thing). It wouldn't make much difference. On the one hand, I'm searching and I'm anxious, on the other, I'm just anxious. As for hope and being optimistic with nothing behind it... It's not something that has worked for me in my short life.

What is the point of living if it is to live deprived of one's abilities? I refuse to live in regret. As for being grateful every day, I don't see the point of this, I don't see how it could help.

ozij wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 5:19 am
NotNotLaosho wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 1:30 pm

Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?
[...]

But knowing that this study was supported by [...] I have a doubt about its reliability I prefer to be wary. I am really scared that my cognitive abilities will not return to normal, even after treatment.
I'm afraid I won't understand what I used to understand easily.
It's encouraging (like all the stories I've read here and there) but it's still an anecdote, hence my research. But it at least gives me hope. Thank you
The study is also funded by [...], so I'm just as suspicious of it.
Even if you look for more recent stuff, there's nothing like this. At best it's a partial cure, at worst it doesn't cure. Complete recovery of cognitive abilities and brain damage seems to be something controversial.
{all added emphasis is mine}

I doubt there is anything in research that will make you less wary, less suspiciuos, less scared of the loss of your cognitive assets.
You are clearly terrified, and trying to find answers in a way that must have worked very well for you in the past.

However, from an academic perspective,you have no reason to trust anything anyone on this forum says to you. There is such a a thing as cognitive dissonance, you know, and you can always say that the people reporting success are simply convincing themselves something is good simply because they've invested in it. Those who haven't succeeded with their therapy have probably dropped off from this forum long ago - the anecdotes on this forum are far from being a representative sample of anything.
Bottom line: there is no end to the ways information can be distrusted or denied.

What you can get from this forum is ideas for you try out in your one and only, singular, statistically non-exitant case of one. Your case of one should be your major research project now. Don't confuse descriptive statistics, and research on populations, with the research you need to go through to improve your very own case of one therapy. It's up to you to decide whether you want to invest time and thought in focusing on your own therapy to get the best you can out of it.

A discussion of the controversies or lack or reliability of the research - or of members responses for that matter - will not get you far in improving your therapy in a way that will give you the best chance of healing.

None of us knows whether you have brain damage due to your sleep apnea. None of us knows whether any damage you may have is reversible. None of us can promise you you will improve.
Those of us here can only tell you they've found their personal struggle to improve their own therapy worth it - and many of us want to help others the way we ourselves have been helped here.
It's a case of "this is what for worked for me in my specific conditions, maybe it could work for you should you want to try it".

To be honest, I've never done that, no. But I've never been terrified before. I've been scared, yes, like everyone else, but I've never been terrified I think. Never like now anyway.

About the academic perspective, I'm agreeing with you, but I'm thinking that maybe people might have come across papers that I missed that are along these lines.

Making the most of it, if it is to limit the decrease to a few percent less, I hardly see the point. Living a diminished life is not living in my opinion.

The last part of your message makes me realise that "cognitive impairment" does not necessarily mean "brain damage". I mean, I'm not sure, I'd have to see what the literature says about it, but it opens up other avenues of research for me.

I'll try CPAP for sure, but I'm still afraid of having brain damage and my cognitive abilities not getting back to where they were two years ago.

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Re: Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?

Post by Thumper1947 » Sun May 22, 2022 10:31 am

My wife says no, it's not reversible and I'm the proof.
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Re: Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?

Post by zonker » Sun May 22, 2022 10:50 am

Thumper1947 wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 10:31 am
My wife says no, it's not reversible and I'm the proof.
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Re: Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?

Post by Deborah K. » Sun May 22, 2022 12:26 pm

Have you talked to your doctor about your extreme anxiety? The doctor may be able to prescribe something to help you worry less about this as well as other issues. Have you had a sleep study yet? Are you using a pap machine? Don't let your anxiety stop you from getting the help that you need. :)
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Re: Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?

Post by NotNotLaosho » Sun May 22, 2022 12:53 pm

Deborah K. wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 12:26 pm
Have you talked to your doctor about your extreme anxiety? The doctor may be able to prescribe something to help you worry less about this as well as other issues. Have you had a sleep study yet? Are you using a pap machine? Don't let your anxiety stop you from getting the help that you need. :)
My psychiatrist wanted to prescribe me something for anxiety but I refused.
I don't care about anxiety as long as my cognitive abilities are back to where they were two years ago. I saw a pulmonologist last Monday and my sleep study is scheduled for mid-June.
My shrink told me yesterday that everything was totally reversible, but again, nothing I've read says that, so I'm wondering if he's lying to me so I don't get even more anxious (I think I'm looking like a fool now, haha).

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Re: Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?

Post by Deborah K. » Sun May 22, 2022 1:05 pm

No, you don't look like a fool, but It would be great if you would allow yourself to take a mild med that will help you stop living in fear! Lots of folks on this list have talked about how their fuzzy brains recovered once they were using a pap machine. Those personal experiences really do matter when considering this issue. I look forward to the future when YOU can report that using a pap machine corrected your own thinking issues! I'll be praying for you. :)
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Re: Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?

Post by chunkyfrog » Sun May 22, 2022 1:19 pm

Every aspect of our lives can be related.
You do accept the fact that mental abilities can be affected by our physical health.
Now learn to accept the relationship between our EMOTIONAL well-being
to both physical and intellectual health.
It is only by caring and loving ourselves (warts and all) that we can be happy.
Do not dismiss the power of the attitude of gratitude,
even if it is for only the small things.
Nothing is completely insignificant--going through the actions
(like prayer, hugs, being kind) helps us more than we can imagine.
Cultivate good habits to replace fruitless "research" and worry.
I promise you can feel better, but you must work on it.

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Re: Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?

Post by Janknitz » Sun May 22, 2022 4:57 pm

You sound anxious AND depressed. I remember feeling horribly depressed--tinged with fuming anger--at diagnosis. For a while nothing was right. I believe it was part of the grieving process--grief for the pre-diagnosis perception of myself. Fortunately, in my case it passed. Treating my sleep apnea certainly helped.

You have a lot of ego tied up in your perceived cognitive abilities, as though that is the only measure of value you have as a human being. As life goes on, we don't get to choose the status quo. We are all on an aging trajectory, and there's loss inherent in that process over which we have NO control. We can wallow in self-pity and be miserable, and drag everyone down with us. Or we can choose not to live that way.

Your choice . . .
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Re: Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?

Post by NotNotLaosho » Mon May 23, 2022 6:24 am

Deborah K. wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 1:05 pm
No, you don't look like a fool, but It would be great if you would allow yourself to take a mild med that will help you stop living in fear! Lots of folks on this list have talked about how their fuzzy brains recovered once they were using a pap machine. Those personal experiences really do matter when considering this issue. I look forward to the future when YOU can report that using a pap machine corrected your own thinking issues! I'll be praying for you. :)
I made a promise to myself when I was able to get off these drugs, that I would never take them again.
I have no doubt that it will make things better, I'm just scared of being (much) less successful than before.
I'm also looking forward to this moment, haha.
chunkyfrog wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 1:19 pm
It is only by caring and loving ourselves (warts and all) that we can be happy.
This is only a (tiny) part of the answer to happiness in my opinion. Happiness in my opinion comes more from accomplishment. Simply loving and caring for yourself is closer to narcissism than happiness in my opinion.
chunkyfrog wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 1:19 pm
Do not dismiss the power of the attitude of gratitude,
even if it is for only the small things.
Nothing is completely insignificant--going through the actions
(like prayer, hugs, being kind) helps us more than we can imagine.
I guess it has a point and an effect if you believe in it. Even if I forced it, I couldn't do it. Saying that I'm grateful to be alive, for example, would only be words, not something I really mean, it would have no more effect on me than saying I like cats.
Janknitz wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 4:57 pm
You have a lot of ego tied up in your perceived cognitive abilities, as though that is the only measure of value you have as a human being. As life goes on, we don't get to choose the status quo. We are all on an aging trajectory, and there's loss inherent in that process over which we have NO control. We can wallow in self-pity and be miserable, and drag everyone down with us. Or we can choose not to live that way.
I know I must seem like an arrogant kid about all this, but it's not just ego. I tended to pick up on everything pretty quickly, without doing anything, everything always seemed obvious to me. I don't care about my value as a human being, the only thing that interests me in life, the only thing that gives meaning to it, is the deep understanding of things.

About ageing, I thought about it, it's even the second thing I thought about (after asking myself if there wasn't a discrepancy between what I am and what I thought I was), I talked to my psychiatrist about it and, it's only him highly unlikely because I'm barely twenty-six.

I feel more like I'm forced between being forced to live in regret or not living at all.


Thank you everyone for being here, really. Even more so on this topic, I'm aware that I must not be an easy person, stubborn, with lots of flaws, yet you are all patient with me.

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Re: Is brain damage due to sleep apnea reversible?

Post by lazarus » Mon May 23, 2022 6:41 am

Janknitz wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 4:57 pm
perceived cognitive abilities, as though that is the only measure
Elwood P. Dowd agrees and suggests "pleasant" as a competing and more significant measure:

https://youtu.be/UUOxEwCuEgQ
The people who confuse "entomology" and "etymology" really bug me beyond words.
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