Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
NotNotLaosho
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Re: Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?

Post by NotNotLaosho » Wed May 11, 2022 9:45 am

Firstly, I would like to thank you all for taking the time to respond to me. I'm sorry it took me so long to reply, but I had a little trouble with my Internet connection.

Miss Emerita wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 6:19 pm
Most certainly possible. My biggest symptoms were feeling stupid, irritable, and gloomy—not feeling a need to sleep during the day.
These are the symptoms that scare me the most. Fear that it won't go away, fear that the sleep apnea isn't what's causing it. I had the ability to do studies that require a certain intellectual quality, I know I could have done it, now everything seems impossible. What I'm about to say might make me sound like a pretentious guy, I just want to illustrate as best I can what I was capable of:
I was always better than others when it came, to learning, to understanding, without really putting in any effort, everything seemed simple. Now, even if I try hard, I can't get anything done, everything seems too complicated.

Can I ask you if it's back to normal and if so, how long will it take?
I guess the answer varies from person to person and what was true for you may not be true for me, but I wonder how long it can take to get back to normal.
Janknitz wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 6:27 pm
Sleep apnea can absolutely manifest primarily as cognitive symptoms. But you are having MORE than just cognitive symptoms.
My father has sleep apnea. I'm a man, I'm fat. I wake up sometimes (once every 3 or 4 months) feeling like I'm choking/drowning, I might have high blood pressure (but it might be a consequence of my diet) since everything began.
Waking up feeling like you are choking/drowning sounds like gastroesophageal reflux, but it doesn't take you off the "possible apnea" list because when your airway obstructs, your struggle to breathe can cause a pressure gradient that pulls stomach contents up into the esophagus. High Blood pressure CAN be a symptom of sleep apnea (you are sleeping all night bathed in stress hormones. Obesity can also be a symptom of sleep apnea, because lack of sleep causes abnormal levels of insulin and ghrelin which regulate appetite. AND, obesity can in turn cause sleep apnea by pressure on the airway when you sleep.

So yes, you need to be tested, and treated if it turns out you do have apnea.
It is true that I have more than just cognitive symptoms, but they are the ones that bother me the most. It's probably going to sound silly but I don't care about living if it's to live in this permanent semi-zombie state (maybe we could add "depression" to my symptoms then? Haha)

I have indeed had Gastroesophageal Reflux Disease in the past. It has subsided but it could indeed be the manifestation of it, that said, I thought it might be related to sleep apnea. Obesity (or overweight, I think I'm on the borderline of both) is probably not a symptom in my case. I gained weight before all this, but I think that could have been a trigger for the sleep apnea as you said.
Chris33022 wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 3:21 pm


My brain fog doesn't seem to have improved very much yet since I started CPAP, perhaps due to the tiredness caused by CPAP. And in addition, I've written novels my whole life, and the past couple of years I feel that my creative drive has left me, which makes me sad. Not sure why, not sure if it's in any way related to sleep apnea (though as I said I wasn't tired at all).

Sorry for this long post. That's it. Good luck.
I'm just an average, panicky guy who has just read studies and testimonials here and there, but maybe you need to adjust to your treatment? I guess not everything is automatic. Not to mention other factors like how long you've gone without treatment or age, no offense, but you probably recover faster in your 20s than in your 50s. Everything will be fine, you'll see ;-)
zonker wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 6:07 pm
NotNotLaosho wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 5:06 pm
Hi everyone.
welcome!
I hope I didn't make a mistake in translation, English is not my native language. I apologize if there are any mistakes in the text.
your english is very good. i'm sure i couldn't speak your language as well.

yes, it sounds like sleep apnea. you will know for sure when you've seen the doctor. please come back and let us know how it goes. we can help you get the best results when you start your treatment.

good luck!
Thank you. I'll be back to let you know how it goes.
lazarus wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 4:35 pm
Janknitz wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 12:42 pm
intrepid posters who help people out!
As much as I liked the answers, I most of all liked the wording of the post of the original poster in this thread. Very well asked and on point. The question alone of this thread is likely to help many who have wondered much the same thing. Well done for people of any and all languages.

I hereby bestow the official Lazarus' Favorite Question of the Week Award (LFQotWA) to the original poster. Thank you, NotNotLaosho, for asking that question exactly the way you did.

Seriously.
Haha, you flatter me. Thanks to you.

Once again, I would like to thank you for hearing me, for responding to me. Thank you.

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Miss Emerita
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Re: Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?

Post by Miss Emerita » Wed May 11, 2022 11:14 am

NotNotLaoho, yes, all my symptoms improved once I started on CPAP. To give you the full picture, I'll add that my sleep has also been crummy due to night-time pain. So CPAP alone didn't restore me fully, but now at long last the pain is starting to subside, and I feel great after nights when the pain is minimal.

Please come back after your sleep study. Feel free to post a copy of the report (with your personal information blacked out).

If you need a regular CPAP machine, I think many people here would recommend one of these machines, if you can get one: Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset, Resmed Airsense 10 Autoset for Her, or Resmed 11.

If/when you have your machine, we'd be happy to help you ease into using it. Don't expect overnight miracles; you'll probably need some patience. But if your experience is like that of most of us here, improvement will come!
Oscar software is available at https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/

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Rubicon
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Re: Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?

Post by Rubicon » Sat May 14, 2022 1:18 pm

NotNotLaosho wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 5:06 pm
I have an appointment with a doctor before I do a sleep study around the fifteenth of May.
Hoping to hear the results of the sleep study!

I think I am going to go with the "smoking gun" theory.

NotNotLaosho
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Re: Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?

Post by NotNotLaosho » Sat May 14, 2022 1:39 pm

Rubicon wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 1:18 pm
NotNotLaosho wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 5:06 pm
I have an appointment with a doctor before I do a sleep study around the fifteenth of May.
Hoping to hear the results of the sleep study!

I think I am going to go with the "smoking gun" theory.
What is the ""smoking gun"theory"?

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lazarus
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Re: Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?

Post by lazarus » Sat May 14, 2022 2:05 pm

NotNotLaosho wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 1:39 pm
""smoking gun theory"?
I believe he may be referring to indirect yet substantial evidence of damage occurring from untreated OSA and comorbid conditions.

The saying "smoking gun" in English, as I understand it, comes from how seeing resulting smoke come from a gun's barrel can be almost as clear evidence as actually seeing the trigger being pulled.

I believe he often reads posts in the early morning of the Eastern time zone in the U.S., if he replies himself.
"As long as we are fortunate enough to be breathing, we will breathe in, breathe through, breathe deep, breathe out. And I'm a doctor now, so I know how breathing works."--Taylor Swift after her honorary “Doctor of Fine Arts” degree from NYU.

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Rubicon
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Re: Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?

Post by Rubicon » Sat May 14, 2022 2:22 pm

And Larissa is taking that position as well.

NotNotLaosho
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Re: Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?

Post by NotNotLaosho » Sat May 14, 2022 2:32 pm

Rubicon wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 2:22 pm
And Larissa is taking that position as well.
I haven't seen anyone named Larissa here, but on another forum, someone named "LarissaH" thinks this is all due to antidepressants. I don't see why she thinks this (I mean, she hasn't really made any argument except "if you've done your research").
Also, I don't see what she's getting at here either.

Did I miss something? Is this an expression I've never heard of (in which case I'd look like a complete dumb man, haha) ?

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Rubicon
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Re: Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?

Post by Rubicon » Sat May 14, 2022 2:43 pm

NotNotLaosho wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 1:39 pm
It all started around October 2020. At the time I had been on 50mg daily of Sertraline (an SSRI) for about ten months to treat OCD. I felt like I had lost 50 IQ points, just like that, for no reason, I felt dumber than a few months before. I told my psychiatrist about it and he said it was probably a side effect of the antidepressant. It was annoying, but I didn't worry about it any more than that until I went completely off the meds in January 2022. These symptoms never went away.
So your guy can't simultaneously say
it was probably a side effect of the antidepressant
and then turn around and say
I've been weaned for several months now, so there's no reason for it to be from that according to my psychiatrist.
That said, I am unable to find any cases of apathy/amotivational syndrome (or similar) that did not reverse upon discontinuation of drug.

THAT said, it doesn't appear that a lot of people are looking, either.

Say, how much $$$ do the pharmaceutical companies make selling this stuff?

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Rubicon
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Re: Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?

Post by Rubicon » Sat May 14, 2022 2:45 pm

NotNotLaosho wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 2:32 pm

I haven't seen anyone named Larissa here, but on another forum, someone named "LarissaH" thinks this is all due to antidepressants. I don't see why she thinks this (I mean, she hasn't really made any argument except "if you've done your research").
Yeah, well, they fear her because she knows more than them, so they locked her out.

Anyway, some hard data should be coming soon!

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Rubicon
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Re: Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?

Post by Rubicon » Sat May 14, 2022 2:57 pm

An interesting story.

Is it just a story?

Hey, I don't judge, just throwing the stuff out there.

https://rxisk.org/ssris-loss-of-identit ... riendships.
I only took sertraline for 5 weeks. I remain in a condition as if still taking the drug, though I have not taken it since, with both the positive and negative effects remaining.

Really
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Re: Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?

Post by Really » Sat May 14, 2022 3:04 pm

Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?
Read some of the posts here and I think you will have your answer. Really!
No Whining Really

NotNotLaosho
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Re: Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?

Post by NotNotLaosho » Sat May 14, 2022 3:10 pm

Rubicon wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 2:43 pm
NotNotLaosho wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 1:39 pm
It all started around October 2020. At the time I had been on 50mg daily of Sertraline (an SSRI) for about ten months to treat OCD. I felt like I had lost 50 IQ points, just like that, for no reason, I felt dumber than a few months before. I told my psychiatrist about it and he said it was probably a side effect of the antidepressant. It was annoying, but I didn't worry about it any more than that until I went completely off the meds in January 2022. These symptoms never went away.
So your guy can't simultaneously say
it was probably a side effect of the antidepressant
and then turn around and say
I've been weaned for several months now, so there's no reason for it to be from that according to my psychiatrist.
That said, I am unable to find any cases of apathy/amotivational syndrome (or similar) that did not reverse upon discontinuation of drug.

THAT said, it doesn't appear that a lot of people are looking, either.

Say, how much $$$ do the pharmaceutical companies make selling this stuff?
The "brain fog" is a well known side effect of antidepressants, at the time I was taking them, there was no need to investigate further. These effects disappear after stopping the treatment (after two or three months depending on the person). I stopped the treatment completely (after having decreased the dose slowly, in agreement with my shrink) for five months now and nothing is back, hence the need to investigate.

I have no idea what their benefit is, but since I've always taken only "generic drugs" (I'm not sure of the English translation) for antidepressants (generic drugs are the most prescribed in France), they must not like my country very much (generics being produced by quite randoms companies). Almost only generic drugs are prescribed in France, they are the best reimbursed by social security (100% if you live below a certain income, something like 70 otherwise, I think).

As for the fact that there don't seem to be many people looking for something can be explained quite simply: we are in a race for results in research, we tend to publish only what seems to work. When we realize in the middle of our study that it is not working, we give up without publishing the fact that our hypothesis is wrong.

I'm afraid it's not that (or not just that) that's causing my symptoms.

Between the time I finished my post and now, you've posted something new.
Rubicon wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 2:57 pm
An interesting story.

Is it just a story?

Hey, I don't judge, just throwing the stuff out there.

https://rxisk.org/ssris-loss-of-identit ... riendships.
I only took sertraline for 5 weeks. I remain in a condition as if still taking the drug, though I have not taken it since, with both the positive and negative effects remaining.

The Rxisk team is at least bizarre, if not biased. David Healy, the founder wants to set up direct online reporting by patients of drug effects, it sounds noble (and to be honest, I think his approach is) but it's fucked up. Without even mentioning the cognitive biases to which we are all subject, how can we be sure that a symptom is only due to a drug? There is a former marketing professor (now professor of medical anthropology). In terms of rigor, we do better... I imagine that you will tell me that it is used to study the marketing methods of the industry

As for the story with "Larissa", I don't care about the internal wars between users.
Really wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 3:04 pm
Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?
Read some of the posts here and I think you will have your answer. Really!
I don't know what to look for. I keep coming across posts where the user has both factors, not just one (with the exception of what was said earlier in response to my original post, but that seems so ponctual that it scares me, scares me that Rubicon and co. are right)

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babydinosnoreless
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Re: Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?

Post by babydinosnoreless » Sat May 14, 2022 3:29 pm

I was always better than others when it came, to learning, to understanding, without really putting in any effort, everything seemed simple. Now, even if I try hard, I can't get anything done, everything seems too complicated.

Can I ask you if it's back to normal and if so, how long will it take?
I guess the answer varies from person to person and what was true for you may not be true for me, but I wonder how long it can take to get back to normal.
I have had this same problem. I have been on a bilevel for about 4 years now. At first I felt a little clearer and my energy levels did increase but no my "brain fog" is not gone. I've either done lasting damage or the "brain fog" is not from my sleep apnea but from my thyroid issues or maybe aging? Its very vexing to find that things that were once so simple are now just gone. I have always read at a very high level now I struggle to remember simple words or the names of actors in movies that I once knew. I've even asked my doctor if I am getting Alzheimers but she assures me that if I'm aware of it that Alzheimers is not the problem. I can guarantee its not anti depressants because until 2021 I had never taken any, and this started before then.

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Julie
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Re: Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?

Post by Julie » Sat May 14, 2022 5:26 pm

Your MD may be right at some level, but while you might not be getting Alzheimer's, I'd want an opinion from a neurologist and not a reassuring comment by your GP. There are many things that can cause the problem, not all being Alzheimer's, but some are still serious.

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babydinosnoreless
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Re: Can sleep apnea manifest itself mainly via cognitive symptoms and without fatigue ?

Post by babydinosnoreless » Sat May 14, 2022 8:35 pm

Julie wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 5:26 pm
Your MD may be right at some level, but while you might not be getting Alzheimer's, I'd want an opinion from a neurologist and not a reassuring comment by your GP. There are many things that can cause the problem, not all being Alzheimer's, but some are still serious.
Sadly due to my cruddy "unaffordable" health care plan, to see any specialist I would need to have a referral from my pcp who doesn't think its an issue. It took me 5 months just to see a dermatologist for a spot the pcp was worried about. Still have to wait another two weeks before I can see my new thyroid doctor. That one was also referred in January. My thyroid meds could be all out of whack since no one has checked my levels since last year sometime. Gotta love our completely screwed up health care system :roll: but hey we finally got our 4 free covid tests from uncle joe.