Cpap for extended wilderness camping?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
glacierjay
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun May 01, 2022 9:04 am

Re: Cpap for extended wilderness camping?

Post by glacierjay » Thu May 19, 2022 4:05 pm

quick update: I am having trouble getting batteries to deliver the advertised capacity using a 15 volt trigger cable. I'm still working to find a reason for this.

I tried Nitecore NB2000. It delivers only 13 hours of therapy on my Z2. That's about 41 watt-hours, not the promised 76 watt-hours

I tried the Baseus 30000 mah battery in Rob's post above. Only slept 6 hours last night and used 18 watt-hours. The meter says only 53% left in the battery. That says I can get at most 2 short nights sleep from the Baseus. It should be capable of 109 watt-hours but seems to be only delivering about 35 watt-hours at 15 volts.

In an earlier post I mentioned trying the Renogy 70000mah battery at 12 volts. I got 9+ nights from it at 12 volts. I will try the 15V trigger cable some time soon but I fear I will get fewer nights.

I'm having extended email conversations with technical support for all 3 companies. With 2-day turnaround for the China-based tech support it is slow going.

I suspect the batteries are losing a lot of power converting output to 15 volts PD.

Next steps:
- Try the Renogy battery with 15v trigger cable
- Try a RavPower 30000 mah PD battery which should arrive today
- Try a different 15V trigger cable to see if the one I have been using is defective.
- Try a 30-watt solar panel that delivers power through USBC PD. I agree with Rob that I may not be able to harvest enough solar energy in a day of hiking to replenish what I use in a night of sleeping. As a result I will probably go with enough batteries to last the full 13 nights of my trip. However today is the first sunny day we've had in a while. I have had the Nitecore charging on the 30-watt solar panel for 4 hours and it is almost charged. There might be hope. (Solar panel: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B096Q2QLDZ )
Last edited by glacierjay on Thu May 26, 2022 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

Rob K
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Re: Cpap for extended wilderness camping?

Post by Rob K » Fri May 20, 2022 10:33 am

Make sure you unplug the Z2 when not using it. It uses around 5wh in standby mode over a single 16 hour day.

Power bank capacity is typically rated at the internal battery voltage which is around 3.7-3.85vdc. Some specs will also list the watthours at that voltage. For the Nightcore NB20000 the spec is 20,0000mah x 3.85vdc = 77wh. Capacity will certainly be less when converting to higher voltages, sometimes considerably less depending on the efficiency of the circuitry. Unfortunately, it seems very few manufacturers list the actual capacity using the different outputs and at different voltages. We are forced to do trial and error to figure out capacities at 15v. We may be able to get that information from the manufacturers before purchasing. It should just be listed on their product websites but most of the time it's not.

For the Renogy 72000 you will have more capacity running at 12v than 15v. The difference depends on the efficiency of the circuitry to boost the voltage. There will be conversion losses. I just ordered one of these so will join the testing soon.

I also ordered a couple of the Baseus 30000 65w power banks. I don't like what you are telling me. lol Conversion losses might be more than I thought. I had pretty good hopes for it based on a capacity test I read online. That pack tested at 95% efficiency converting 3.85v to 5v. One of the more efficient batteries on the market. Possibly efficiency drops off more than I expected converting to 15v. Sure wish companies would list specs for all their outputs and voltages.

The better quality cables will have less loss of power at the output end of the cable, although I think the difference is minimal. That's something I can check with my usb meter when it arrives. I can place it before and after the cable to see how much power is lost through the cable. Short cables are more efficient than long ones. It may not be anything to worry about, I'll figure that out soon.

Some good news on the solar panel. I'll check it out.

_________________
Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Mask: AirFit™ N10 Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Resmed F10 Mask for colds. When camping on battery power I use P10 mask and PR 560p machine.

glacierjay
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun May 01, 2022 9:04 am

Re: Cpap for extended wilderness camping?

Post by glacierjay » Sun May 22, 2022 10:51 pm

Quick update on solar charging.

I've been working today with a ECEEN 30-watt solar panel and a Baseus Battery. I've been doing yard work and keeping an eye on the solar panel to ensure it is in full sunlight and facing the sun. I check it every hour to see how much the battery is charged.

Conclusion: I won't use a solar panel while backpacking to charge my battery. A 30-watt USC-C PD solar panel charged a Baseus battery about 2% per hour in perfect conditions. The fully-charged Baseus battery provided 3 nights therapy; it takes about 33% of battery capacity to provide a night of sleep. In perfect conditions I got 26% charge in 12 hours. So I can't keep up with the power I'm consuming at night by charging with a 30-watt solar panel during the day.

The battery started at 20% charge. I put it in the sun from 7AM to 7PM and observed the reported %charge on the battery's display
time charge%
7AM 20%
8AM 24%
9AM 27%
10AM 29%
11AM 31%
Noon 35%
1PM 37%
2PM -missed this time --
3PM 40%
4PM 41%
5PM -missed this time --
6PM 47%
7PM 46% (not a typo. It lost 1% between 6 & 7 PM. High clouds moved in)


SOLAR PANELS I TRIED
I selected the ECEEN panel after sending 3 other solar panels back to Amazon.

Testing ECEEN: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B096Q2QLDZ (smallest, lightest, works best, USB-C PD)

Rejected and returned to Amazon:

Goal Zero Nomad 20: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B085KYN2WY (Not USB-C PD, didn't charge NB2000 in a full day)
Renogy 21 watt: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07SRBSJQ1 (Not USB-C PD; couldn't get even 1 bar of charge in a full day)
no-name 60 Watt: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09BC5SFQQ (too big for backpack, heavy, not USB-C PD)

BATTERIES AVAILABLE
I selected the Baseus battery for this test because it has a meter that indicates % charge. I also have a Renogy 70000 mah battery, a Ravpower 30000 mah battery, and a Nitecore NB2000. The others just have 4 LEDs to indicate charge level. It's too far between 1 and 2 LEDs lit to give you any idea how solar charging is progressing.

Testing Baseus: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08JV4W4NY

Haven't tested these 3 with solar panel but I might later:
Renogy: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0791WDZTW
Nitecore: https://www.nitecorestore.com/Nitecore- ... b20000.htm
Ravpower: https://www.ravpower.com/products/rp-pb ... power-bank

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loggerhead12
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Re: Cpap for extended wilderness camping?

Post by loggerhead12 » Sun May 22, 2022 11:20 pm

Hmm ... maybe you can't keep up forever but under ideal circumstances you turned a 3-night battery into a 5-night battery. That's worth something.

Rob K
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Re: Cpap for extended wilderness camping?

Post by Rob K » Mon May 23, 2022 6:44 am

Glacierjay that is some detailed information. So with the Eceen 30w panel you won't be able to replenish a nights usage but can extend the battery capacity to a degree. Their information is inconsistent as to which output provides the most power and fastest charging. Probably the only way to really know is to measure it with a meter. I wonder if there are more efficient panels in that size range. I suspected that a 50w panel would be better but that's not something one would use back packing. Would be ok for other things.

_________________
Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Mask: AirFit™ N10 Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Resmed F10 Mask for colds. When camping on battery power I use P10 mask and PR 560p machine.

glacierjay
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Joined: Sun May 01, 2022 9:04 am

Re: Cpap for extended wilderness camping?

Post by glacierjay » Tue May 24, 2022 9:07 am

loggerhead12 wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 11:20 pm
Hmm ... maybe you can't keep up forever but under ideal circumstances you turned a 3-night battery into a 5-night battery. That's worth something.
My initial thought too. But the solar panel weighs more and takes more space than a second battery and doesn't get me to 13 nights.
I did see a 42 watt 3 lb rollable panel from PowerFilm, but it's $610. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ERLXT10
Combine that with a 3-day battery and it might be a good-enough system.

Rob K
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Re: Cpap for extended wilderness camping?

Post by Rob K » Tue May 24, 2022 9:24 pm

Yes the Powerfilm solar, very compact. If money wasn't a concern that would be the #1 choice for me. I've been on their website a bunch and eye balling that 42w panel. Their Lightsaver panels with the built in battery are kind of a neat idea. To small for what we are doing though.


Received my power banks and chargers today and did some charging.

Baseus 30000 65w power bank. Arrived with about 70% charge according to the display. The Baseus 100w wall charger I bought charged the power bank at around 60-65w through the usb-c input. That's even a little higher than I expected. That usb meter I bought has been very handy for checking charge rates. Charging started out around 19v@3.25a=61.75watts, after it was mostly charged it dropped down to 4.9v@3.15v=15.4w charge rate. From there the voltage stayed at 5v but the current kept decreasing until the power bank was fully charged and stopped charging.

Be aware when charging the Baseus power bank that the displayed battery percentage may not be accurate. Both of the banks that I bought kept charging for nearly two more hours after the display got to 100% and stopped flashing. Maybe it is close to being fully charged when it first hits 100%, but in my mind it should say 98% if it's going to keep charging for such a long time. If you want the bank to be completely charged press the button on the side and look at the current draw. When it gets to zero amps than the bank is completely charged. A good test for the future will be to compare the capacity when it gets to 100% on the display and the capacity after it is fully charged to where it stops drawing current.

Baseus 100w wall charger worked exactly as I had hoped. Hopefully it lasts a good long while given the price.

The Baseus 100w car charger works exactly how I had hoped. It charges the Baseus power bank at around 60-65w. So fast charging in the Jeep will be possible. It also outputs the required 15v with the Jacobs trigger cable to run the Z2 no matter if the vehicle is running or off. The display cycles through several readings. It tells what voltage is being output from the usb-c, then the power out of the usb-c, then the voltage out of the usb-a, then the power out of the usb-a, then the input voltage from the vehicle cig socket. That's some good info to give you piece of mind that things are operating correctly. Seems like a good purchase.

FYI, all the Baseus literature sucks for everything I bought, it's all very vague. They don't even mention some of the features of the power bank. Those I learned of from other people, reading around online.

The Renogy 72000 GP-14 started out disappointing but I think it will be fine. They claim it can be fast charged at 60w but the wall charger they supply that plugs into the 5.5mm dc jack is only 40w. What the h? I used my Baseus 100w charger and it charged at 50w through the usb-c input. So that will be faster but not the 60w that they claim. They also say you can connect up to a 100w solar panel so maybe that is how you can get up to a 60w charge rate. A panel that big must be charging at a higher rate than 60w. No mention if a panel that size will need a separate charge controller or if the power bank will handle it. Pretty misleading information on their behalf that I'm going to have to investigate and sort out. The led indicators are annoying. Tricky to tell how much charge you have since the leds bleed into one another. Even if an led is off it is partially lighted from the other leds.

Edit: I reviewed the specs again for the Renogy. They claim 7-8 hours charge time with the 40w wall charger, 5-6 hours charge time with the 60w usb-c charger input and 3-4 hours charge time with a 100w solar panel. So it will charge fastest with a big solar panel. They do claim 60w usb-c charging but that appears to be wrong since I checked it and the charge rate was only 50w. I'll test again after completely discharging the battery and see if the charge rate gets any higher.

So tonight I'm starting out with the Baseus 30000mah 65w bank to run the Z2. Will see if I can get three nights or not.

_________________
Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Mask: AirFit™ N10 Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Resmed F10 Mask for colds. When camping on battery power I use P10 mask and PR 560p machine.
Last edited by Rob K on Fri May 27, 2022 8:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

glacierjay
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Joined: Sun May 01, 2022 9:04 am

Re: Cpap for extended wilderness camping?

Post by glacierjay » Wed May 25, 2022 9:58 am

Interesting email this morning from Baseus:
Battery Capacity refers to the capacity of the Li-ion battery inside the power bank.
Rated Capacity refers is the capacity after power conversion.

The rated capacity is affected by power conversion efficiency and is less than the battery capacity without exception as there will always be power loss during energy conversion.
To comply with related requirements and relevant standards, the battery capacity and a rated capacity of the power bank are marked on the product.

The rated capacity of the power bank is 18000mAh, according to the information you provided 74 watt-hours delivered when the meter went to 0% remaining, we can know that the actual rated capacity is 19430mAh, it is more than our marked information(18000mAh).

I was not aware of the "rated capacity" of batteries. This clears up some mystery about why the batteries are not delivering as many watt-hours as I expect. Apparently the Baseus I have is actually delivering a bit more than the rated capacity. Testing continuing...

Rob, are you using the Renogy GP-14 with the 15V USB-C trigger cable? I have not had time to try that yet and will be very interested in what you find.

Rob K
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Re: Cpap for extended wilderness camping?

Post by Rob K » Wed May 25, 2022 9:09 pm

That is what I have been saying. The capacity that most of them list is at the internal battery voltage of 3.7-3.85v. When converting to higher voltages some capacity will be lost.

They claim 30000mah@3.8v=114wh and they are claiming 18000mah@3.8v=68.4wh. Which one is it? There shouldn't be any conversion loss converting 3.8v to 3.8v. What they are saying is that it's really a 68.4wh power bank. So converting to higher voltages the capacity will be even less. Maybe that explains why the percentage on my bank says 35% after just one night. I think we've been swindled. I'll sleep on it and report back tomorrow and see if I get through the second night.

I'll get to the Renogy after the Baseus test.

_________________
Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Mask: AirFit™ N10 Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Resmed F10 Mask for colds. When camping on battery power I use P10 mask and PR 560p machine.
Last edited by Rob K on Wed May 25, 2022 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rob K
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Re: Cpap for extended wilderness camping?

Post by Rob K » Wed May 25, 2022 9:27 pm

I just read some information online that stated the actual capacity of a power bank can vary as much as 40% from what is advertised as. That is considerably more than I expected due to conversion losses. It's obvious to me now that we are being mislead or lied to, I haven't figured that out yet.

_________________
Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Mask: AirFit™ N10 Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Resmed F10 Mask for colds. When camping on battery power I use P10 mask and PR 560p machine.

Rob K
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:22 pm

Re: Cpap for extended wilderness camping?

Post by Rob K » Thu May 26, 2022 8:43 am

It seems the Baseus 30000mah 65w power bank is not as advertised. It doesn't seem to be 30000mah@3.8v=114wh capacity, they are also claiming 18000mah@3.8v=68.4wh rated capacity. So under actual use it would be less than 68.4wh due to conversion losses going to higher voltages and less if running in cold weather.

What is going on here? Are we being lied to or am I missing something? I think the displayed charge capacity percentage is messing with my mind. Will need to test further.

I was able to get two short nights out of the Baseus battery running at 7cm. The display says it has 6% left on the battery.
Night 1: 7cm, 7:30time, 15.1v x 1.81ah = 27.3wh, 35% left on battery
Night 2: 7cm, 7:31time, 15.1v x 1.83ah = 27.6wh, 6% left on battery

I got a a total of 54.9wh over 15 hours with 6% left in the battery, if that's accurate. If it is I'll be lucky to even get 2 full nights out of the Baseus, that's disappointing.

Edit: The Baseus has made it through a third night running at zero percent battery capacity. I think the displayed charge percentage is way off.

_________________
Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Mask: AirFit™ N10 Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Resmed F10 Mask for colds. When camping on battery power I use P10 mask and PR 560p machine.
Last edited by Rob K on Sun May 29, 2022 3:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Rob K
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Re: Cpap for extended wilderness camping?

Post by Rob K » Thu May 26, 2022 8:56 am

With the Baseus they appear to have set the charge and discharge limits at 60% (18000/30000=60%) of the total battery capacity. That is really poor performance for lithium batteries since lead acid acid batteries can use 50% of capacity and still have a good long service life. From my reading around online I thought it was common with lithium batteries to be able to use around 80% of the battery capacity and still have a good long service life. I have no idea why the Baseus performs so poorly and why they would only use 60% of the battery capacity. Maybe the batteries are poor quality or maybe I'm still missing something.

_________________
Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Mask: AirFit™ N10 Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Resmed F10 Mask for colds. When camping on battery power I use P10 mask and PR 560p machine.

Rob K
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:22 pm

Re: Cpap for extended wilderness camping?

Post by Rob K » Thu May 26, 2022 7:12 pm

Did some more studying on lithium batteries. The various lithium batteries can handle a depth of discharge from 80-100% without significantly reducing their lifespan. It sounds like most can handle around 80-95 dod(depth of discharge) with the highest quality ones being able to handle 100% dod. Lifepo4 batteries can handle 100% depth of discharge. The industry consensus is to limit dod on lithium batteries to 80% of total capacity. that covers all types of lithiums and quality ranges. Not using that last 20% will prolong the life of all lithium batteries.

The Baseus battery has a rated output of only 18000mah@3.8v when the battery capacity is 30000mah@3.8v. So only 60% of the battery capacity is being used. That is barely any better than lead acid. This makes me believe that the batteries are poor quality, or the internal battery capacity is not 30000mah(they lied) or they are limiting the depth of discharge significantly which I have no idea why they would do that. The answer might be a combination of all of those which is probably something I won't figure out.

_________________
Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Mask: AirFit™ N10 Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Resmed F10 Mask for colds. When camping on battery power I use P10 mask and PR 560p machine.

Rob K
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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:22 pm

Re: Cpap for extended wilderness camping?

Post by Rob K » Fri May 27, 2022 7:57 pm

Glacierjay, how many nights, hours and watthours did you get out of your Baseus power bank? I assume you are set to 7cm of pressure on your Z2. Did it shut down at some point? I can't figure this thing out. The specs don't seem right and the displayed charge percentage doesn't seem anywhere near correct. What was your experience?

When I charged both of my Baseus power banks the displays got to 100% but I was monitoring it and they kept charging for two more hours after that. Now that I am using one of them to run the Z2 at 7cm the displayed percentage dropped quickly to 35% after the first night and 6% after the second night. I thought I was only going to get two nights but it keeps on running at zero percent. It has been running for an additional 8.5 hours after the display got to zero and started flashing. It is still putting out 15v and still going even after I had run it for a total of almost 25hrs@7cm and 89wh. The manual doesn't say anything about the state of charge in relation to the displayed percentage or if it will shut off before the batteries get completely depleted.

_________________
Machine: AirCurve™ 10 VAuto BiLevel Machine with HumidAir™ Heated Humidifier
Mask: AirFit™ N10 Nasal CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: Resmed F10 Mask for colds. When camping on battery power I use P10 mask and PR 560p machine.
Last edited by Rob K on Sun May 29, 2022 3:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.

glacierjay
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun May 01, 2022 9:04 am

Re: Cpap for extended wilderness camping?

Post by glacierjay » Fri May 27, 2022 8:53 pm

RobK, I got 24 hours of sleep from the Baseus -- Night 1 [6 hours, 53% left, 21Wh measured] Night 2 [8 hours, 28% left, 24 Wh measured] Night 3 [10 hours, 7% left, 29 Wh measured) but then it quit. The meter seems flaky. As noted above, it took forever to solar charge but I unfortunately did not measure charging current.
I'm optimistic; if I limit myself to 6 hours on the CPAP I can get 4 nights out of it.

-Jay