Insane respiratory rate last night, concerned.

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modest811
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Insane respiratory rate last night, concerned.

Post by modest811 » Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:27 pm

Been going back and forth between the Dreamwear FFM and the F20. Last night I used the F20 after not using it for a couple nights and got this INSANE oscar report.

https://imgur.com/a/Qx7LwmF

First picture is my sleep last night with the F20 - the crazy one with high flow limitations
Second picture is an upclose viewt
third picture is my last sleep with the F20 mask that was perfectly normal
4th picture in this album is a regular sleep with the Dreamwear FFM mask

Never seen this before. The only thing I did different was pop one of those over night tab things that are supposed to prevent you from dry mouth. Have no idea what caused this. I think it's the mask? I guess just go dreamwear from now on? I feel pretty bad today.

Thanks guys.
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Pugsy
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Re: Insane respiratory rate last night, concerned.

Post by Pugsy » Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:49 pm

probably ballistocardiographic artifact causing what looks like a marked increase in respiration rate at time.

https://www.cpaptalk.com/search.php?key ... diographic

You need to add the red line to mark the flow rate at 0.0 to really see if that is what is going on.

Right click your mouse on the words "flow rate" on the left side of the graph....a menu will pop up and you need to scroll down and click on "dotted lines"....then put a check mark in little box by "zero".
Then redo the flow rate zoomed in screen shot where your respiration rate is high.

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modest811
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Re: Insane respiratory rate last night, concerned.

Post by modest811 » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:00 pm

Cool. I think I did as you asked!

Should be in the attached image.
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Miss Emerita
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Re: Insane respiratory rate last night, concerned.

Post by Miss Emerita » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:01 pm

While you're at it, could you reformat your charts the next time you post? Include all and only these graphs, plus the left panel:

Events
Flow rate
Leaks
Flow limitations
Pressure
Snores.

And squeeze in the respiration rate. Since you are using a fixed pressure, you could actually put RR in place of pressure.

Pugsy, I'm not sure why a cardioballistic effect would show up just some of the time. Do you have some thoughts about that?

Also, I'm curious about the considerable difference in flow limitations between the 17th and the 20th. Could this conceivably have some connection with the Xylimelt??
Oscar software is available at https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/

modest811
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Re: Insane respiratory rate last night, concerned.

Post by modest811 » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:18 pm

Miss Emerita wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:01 pm
While you're at it, could you reformat your charts the next time you post? Include all and only these graphs, plus the left panel:

Events
Flow rate
Leaks
Flow limitations
Pressure
Snores.

And squeeze in the respiration rate. Since you are using a fixed pressure, you could actually put RR in place of pressure.

Pugsy, I'm not sure why a cardioballistic effect would show up just some of the time. Do you have some thoughts about that?

Also, I'm curious about the considerable difference in flow limitations between the 17th and the 20th. Could this conceivably have some connection with the Xylimelt??
Done!

First photo is normal night with F20
Second is with the Dream Wear Mask
Third is last night with the Xylimelt. I had it in my top gum? Maybe that's what was causing it? I film myself in my sleep too and i wasn't moving around much last night, though I did notice at one point it looked like I was breathing kinda fast. Hard to tell.
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Pugsy
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Re: Insane respiratory rate last night, concerned.

Post by Pugsy » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:24 pm

Miss Emerita wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:01 pm
Pugsy, I'm not sure why a cardioballistic effect would show up just some of the time. Do you have some thoughts about that?
No real specific thoughts other than I have seen it happen on my own reports (and other people) where I have brief periods of a spike in respiration rate and I zoom in on that area and there are some signs of the echo thing going on.
I don't see it all that often but on occasion.
I have no idea why it is a sometimes thing but I personally have experience the "sometimes thing". :lol:

As for the marked difference in flow limitations....I don't see it being related to the Xylimelts though. Too many people use it and don't seem to complain of that occurring.

If the ugly FL graph is from the F20 mask night....I would wonder if the mask itself was compressing on the nasal bridge area and causing a bit of flow reductions just from the pressure of the mask. I know that is why I won't wear any mask that touches the nasal bridge area of my nose. It pretty much causes horrible nasal congestion that gets immediately relieved as soon as I remove the mask...so I know it is the mask causing the congestion.

So I would wonder if the nice, not so exciting FL graph, is from using a mask that doesn't put pressure on the turbinates.

I do think it is fairly obvious with this zoomed in graph with the red line and if we count the real respirations and not the machine calculated respirations...we are seeing prime examples of the echo and of course that doesn't mean anything and no cause for concern.

To the OP....if we manually count the respirations when the machine is saying you had close to 40....it's fairly obvious that you weren't breathing that rapidly. The ballistocardio artifact seems to roughly double the respirations and that is what appears to be happening here. Each time the flow rate crosses the 0.0 line it gets counted as a respiration but it's not a real breath you are seeing. It's a little blip from the cardiac echo causing the flow rate line to bounce up and down a bit crossing the 0.0 line.

Also...due to the way the images get lined up using the terms "first night" probably can confuse us.
It would be clearer if you would say "dated so and so".
I never know if the first one I see on top of other screen shots was the post image posted or the last.
Sometimes when we do links or attachments....what we think is "first" is actually last. :lol: Using the date of the report is a better descriptive term. That way we don't have to wonder how the images rank.

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Pugsy
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Re: Insane respiratory rate last night, concerned.

Post by Pugsy » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:27 pm

What mask did you use last night? I am confused. Last night was the ugly FL night.
Is this a common look for your FL or one off random look?
Do you remember much/if any nasal congestion going on?

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modest811
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Re: Insane respiratory rate last night, concerned.

Post by modest811 » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:53 pm

The crazy FL is from the F20, but I've used the F20 for a year and never had this happen before. But have been trying the dream wear mask lately to try something new. The first night i went back to the f20, this happened.

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Pugsy
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Re: Insane respiratory rate last night, concerned.

Post by Pugsy » Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:05 pm

Then I don't know why the ugly FL. Something changed somewhere but things change every night anyway.
We don't sleep in the same position...we don't get the same sleep stage cycling....we sometimes get nasal congestion and sometimes not.

If this ends up being an uncommon rarity then I don't know that I would devote much time or energy in worrying about the FL graphs as long as I was sleeping good and feeling decent.

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Morbius
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Re: Insane respiratory rate last night, concerned.

Post by Morbius » Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:51 pm

Pugsy wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:49 pm
probably ballistocardiographic artifact causing what looks like a marked increase in respiration rate at time.
Recalling the good ol' days:

Image

Image

But anyway ballistothingamajiggy is pretty subtle so my guess is a lot of that stuff in the flow channel isn't BC. The best way to confirm that would be to get a EKG simultrace and compare, or at least track heart rate and see if it plots out.

https://www.thoracic.org/professionals/ ... hannel.php

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Morbius
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Re: Insane respiratory rate last night, concerned.

Post by Morbius » Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:07 pm

And remember the 420E? That thing used to actually look for cardiac oscillations.

Damn time sure flies...

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Pugsy
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Re: Insane respiratory rate last night, concerned.

Post by Pugsy » Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:22 pm

Morbius wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:07 pm
And remember the 420E? That thing used to actually look for cardiac oscillations.

Damn time sure flies...
Alas the 420E even predates me. I never had that pleasure. No wonder you retired so young. :lol:
Good to see you alive and still kicking. :D Don't be a stranger. You are missed here.
Every now and then I think "where's dave to annoy me with asking a question as an answer to a question."
Take care.

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Airtobreathe
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Re: Insane respiratory rate last night, concerned.

Post by Airtobreathe » Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:56 am

I was also suffering from this. Insanely high respiration rates, peaking at up to 50 per minute. It started with waves that resembled cardio-ballistic echoes, but the waves became wilder and wilder, until no breathing pattern could be recognized at all.

I have pretty severe heart failure and arrhythmia.

I never understood what this was, but they disappeared when I changed my CPAP to APAP and the EPR from 0 to 3.

If desired for further analysis I can post some examples.

modest811
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Re: Insane respiratory rate last night, concerned.

Post by modest811 » Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:13 am

Happened again last night! It's so annoying... 

Image


Image

It's definitely positional, I filmed it last night and I was on rolled on my back and it started popping off. You can see it here. I have an 'apnea' which is not one, it's just I moved in my sleep and held my breath, then as I'm on my back it starts up. 

Image 


It's just so weird because I had been using apap/bipap for over a year and hadn't had this issue, and then all of a sudden it starts up. I'm pretty young, 31, and I don't have any health issues. I looked when I was sleeping and I'm def not breathing this fast. The people at Apneaboard seem to just think think it's heavy flow limitation and I need like an ASV or something, you guys think it should be ignored? Is this super serious or something I should contact my doctor about? I've tried my Vauto and honestly it doesn't seem to make that much of a difference. My heart rate was pretty stable during this time and not erratic. I'm tired today but I think I just kept waking up from condensation in my mask (I have a heated tube but the tube doesn't heat up the mask unfortunately). 

I don't know. I just hate this. I don't like wearing the sleep noodle that keeps me on my side because after awhile my shoulder hurts from sleeping in one position. Maybe I'll try my soft cervical collar tonight but that ends up hurting my neck a bit. Ugh.

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Pugsy
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Re: Insane respiratory rate last night, concerned.

Post by Pugsy » Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:39 am

Looks to me like ballistocardiographic artifact. Lots of discussion about it here in the past and essentially it can be ignored.
https://www.cpaptalk.com/search.php?key ... diographic

It's not really a respiration per se...it's the machine counting the little artifact as a respiration and essentially doubling the respiration count.

Now why it might only pop up with a certain position change....I have no idea.
It does seem to also happen when there is an increase in FLs but I am not so sure the two are related to each other....as in causing it.

Calling on Morbius......your thoughts???

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