Page 9 of 13
Re: Tidal volume and Flow limitations
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 5:47 am
by Morbius
AmSleepnBetta wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:39 pm
I had hope you, with obvious sleep care knowledge--if spottty as it turns out (coruscating fools gold?)--would be one to consider pitching in, trying to find ways to help low AHI sufferers of flow limitation pinpoint it and arm themselves to convince and persuade their care providers of unmet, possibly remediable needs. No not work with me, but work separately to help me and others understand what you have learned, know and could share.
I'll give it some thought (or my successor will).
There will be conditions of course...
Re: Tidal volume and Flow limitations
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 5:58 am
by Morbius
...and let's start out simple.
You're trying to help people? Let's see if that's happening.
Have Dayquill explain your last graphic.
Re: Tidal volume and Flow limitations
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 8:11 am
by palerider
Morbius wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 5:58 am
...and let's start out simple.
You're trying to help people? Let's see if that's happening.
Have Dayquill explain your last graphic.
I needed a good laugh this morning,
Thank you sir!
Re: Tidal volume and Flow limitations
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 8:25 am
by Morbius
AmSleepnBetta wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:39 pm
So what would you call the abstract's "%NED% drops in flow (25, 25-50 and 50%) which caused,of course, (obvious unstated) commensurate drops in tidal volume? Simple integration of the FR curve (0.04 sec time slices x flow rate) produces, as it must a volume curve shape with areas identical in form to that of the FR curve.
Hey, you offered this as evidence of tidal volume drops and it's not, especially since those are 9 different patients, not a progression of NED severity.
That said, how many times have I explained
As FLs progress in severity through hypopnea and eventually to apnea, Vt eventually falls to -0-.
But OK, don't say I never gave you nothin":
Re: Tidal volume and Flow limitations
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 8:44 am
by Morbius
Next (or eventually) I will offer why trying to explain this
with that
is like
Morbius wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:04 am
somebody trying to fix a fine Swiss timepiece with a hammer.
Re: Tidal volume and Flow limitations
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 9:19 am
by Morbius
Tidal Volume is an estimate of quantity of inhaled air per breath, calculated as an integral of respiratory flow: based on the leak flow, the mask vent flow and the total flow rate. The display is based on a five-breath moving average, updated every breath.
Re: Tidal volume and Flow limitations
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:20 am
by Morbius
palerider wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 8:11 am
Morbius wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 5:58 am
...and let's start out simple.
You're trying to help people? Let's see if that's happening.
Have Dayquill explain your last graphic.
I needed a good laugh this morning,
Thank you sir!
That's okay. The point has been made. ABS cannot teach; Dayquill cannot learn.
That said, I imagine ABS is creating a "dumbed-down" version of his opinions for Dayquill to post.
And that may not be a bad thing.
Re: Tidal volume and Flow limitations
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 2:49 pm
by palerider
Morbius wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:20 am
palerider wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 8:11 am
Morbius wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 5:58 am
...and let's start out simple.
You're trying to help people? Let's see if that's happening.
Have Dayquill explain your last graphic.
I needed a good laugh this morning,
Thank you sir!
That's okay. The point has been made. ABS cannot teach; Dayquill cannot learn.
That said, I imagine ABS is creating a "dumbed-down" version of his opinions for Dayquill to post.
And that may not be a bad thing.
I just wish they'd find somewhere else to wank themselves off and quit lowering the overall intelligence level of the forum by trying to cram together a lot of big words that they don't understand...
As far as dumbing it down, not being able to *communicate* something effectively is an indication of not actually *understanding* the subject, no matter how many big words one manages to cram into walls of text. We'll see, I suppose.
Re: Tidal volume and Flow limitations
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 3:05 pm
by Jlfinkels
zonker wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:40 pm
with dataq1 watching, one must be careful where one places an "f".
Re: Tidal volume and Flow limitations
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 3:47 pm
by Morbius
So the reason tidal volume analysis is not helpful (in OSA anyway. In COPD it's VERY helpful) is noted above. It's horribly inaccurate to begin with (+/-20%) and essentially historical in nature as it's an average of the last 5 breaths. That's the graph they posted elsewhere, and as you can see, tidal volume is actually increasing in the face of worsening FL (there is the additional confounder of pressure increase, but I'd like a monitor a little more reliable than "it works when it works, except when it don't").
That said, you have primary data. Look at the actual waveform. Identify arousals (note to self FLOW document) which is certainly more important. The FL channel is telling you everything you need to know-- where all the FLs are and how severe.
I mean, if Moe there is saying
So what would you call the abstract's "%NED% drops in flow (25, 25-50 and 50%) which caused,of course, (obvious unstated) commensurate drops in tidal volume? Simple integration of the FR curve (0.04 sec time slices x flow rate) produces, as it must a volume curve shape with areas identical in form to that of the FR curve. ...Are you here as elsewhere indicating the FR curve we rely on and try to decipher for better sleep is meaningless?
Nope! Completely meaningful! Therefore, monitoring an unreliable parameter is useless and we should use
the FR curve we rely on
Besides, I forgot my 0.04 Sec Time Slicer.
Re: Tidal volume and Flow limitations
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 4:14 pm
by Morbius
AmSleepnBetta wrote: ↑Mon Feb 21, 2022 5:29 am
negative effort dependence (NED)
That **** again.
Unless you feel like swallowing an esophageal balloon (or stick on a suprasternal notch pressure transducer) NED is an impressive word at OSA parties.
Guide To Identifying Negative Effort Dependence (NED) With 95% Reliability
FL is lumpy on top - NED
FL is flat on top - not NED
Do you really CARE which one you got?
OK, maybe.
Like in fixed obstructions.
ADDENDUM: For further reading:
https://www.thoracic.org/statements/res ... tudies.pdf
pp.1079-1080
Re: Tidal volume and Flow limitations
Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 4:29 pm
by Morbius
So duty cycle.
Yes it's accurate, but does it tell us something that we already know, or can find in other places?
Does it help identify events?
Does it aid in treatment?
More importantly, does it have an application in self-monitor/treat?
Or is it a solution looking for a problem?
Bring on the Duty Cycle salespeople!
Re: Tidal volume and Flow limitations
Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 12:15 am
by AmSleepnBetta
Morbius wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 8:25 am
[quote=AmSleepnBetta post_id
So what would you call the abstract's "%NED% drops in flow (25, 25-50 and 50%) which caused,of course, (obvious unstated) commensurate drops in tidal volume? Simple integration of the FR curve (0.04 sec time slices x flow rate) produces, as it must a volume curve shape with areas identical in form to that of the FR curve.
Hey, you offered this as evidence of tidal volume drops and it's not, especially since those are 9 different patients, not a progression of NED severity.
Who said it was a progression? No, each test subject was tested to establish their normalizing pneumotach-measured TV ("inspired air" if you cavil at "TV") and then was soon tested further to that individual's point of NED. Then the percentage reduction of flow volume, of reduced TV, at NED was calculated and categorized by percentage for their three research summary bins.
[/quote]
Re: Tidal volume and Flow limitations
Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 12:27 am
by AmSleepnBetta
Morbius wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 3:47 pm
Are you here as elsewhere indicating the FR curve we rely on and try to decipher for better sleep is meaningless?
Nope! Completely meaningful!
Then numerical integration of that Resmed BRP FR curve data is just as meaningful for determination of TV.
the FR curve we rely on
Re: Tidal volume and Flow limitations
Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 12:48 am
by AmSleepnBetta
Morbius wrote: ↑Tue Feb 22, 2022 4:29 pm
So duty cycle.
Yes it's accurate, but does it tell us something that we already know, or can find in other places?
Does it help identify events?
Does it aid in treatment?
More importantly, does it have an application in self-monitor/treat?
Or is it a solution looking for a problem?
Bring on the Duty Cycle salespeople!
[/quote
Just more gratuitous ordure from you.
Obviously and charitably you have read ? little I've posted, preferring to call it unreadable and to sling mud and cast doubt to elevate yourself. It looks to be incurable "to the bone". You overlook (?) repeated guidance for finding duty cycle. My thing, the I-over-E graph, curve divergence, readout of chosen I and E time at the cursor, the formula.
What drives you? My most recent post you deride is an example where FL was only explainable with high duty cycle ratio.